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<  General Toppy discussions  ~  Lost channels & MyStuff failures

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mavison
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:29 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 242
My Toppy has behaved flawlessly for many years, but when we returned after Christmas away I found that it started in the dreaded native screen. Having read about the unusual high pressure erather my first thought was: Oh ****** that will be my disc corrupted.

But when I had chance to have a better look, I found that the (1TB) disc was ok but there appeared to be no channels. I vaguely remembered that could also happen (not quite sure when/how) but I re-tuned natively, then used TopManager with latest data files to do a 'proper' re-tune which also deleted all the dross (down to 35 TV & 12 Radio). After that, all seemed well (apart from a few missed recordings).

Since then it has usually worked, but several times it has started with the MyStuff Recovery Mode. I have used fsCheck, which looks ok to me. I turned it on the morning to check it was ok ... and found it had lost channels again.

After again re-tuning and starting the EPC again, it seemed ok, and survived several power cycles. But this evening there was a Verify Folders, and several MS failures.

This to me sounds like a PSU problem? The PSU did have several (6? 8? but not all) capacitors changed some years ago with the AndyF kit of the time. I do have a couple of other 5800's as spares, so I can check if those PSUs are identical, and in a better state.

Before I start dismantling it to check voltages with my DVM, does the PSU seem a likely culprit?

_________________
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; PruneEPG 1.0; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.53; MHEG On/Off A3; (Power Restore V0.7.7);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 10/1/20
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andyfras
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:05 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3464
It's possible that the unchanged capacitors are now causing problems as they fail. I've not managed to pin symptoms to these capacitors.

It's also possible that the problem is poor signal or atmospherics. Or a failing disk.

Try running some diagnostic TAPs such as Signal Monitor and FsCheck (Utilities folder).

_________________
Toppy PSU repair service or capacitor kits for DIY available - PM me for details.
MyStuff 6.6 : Little Clock : MHEGOnOff : Extend : EPG2MEI : SecCache : EIT_Sub : TSSaver : Prune EPG
Channel Organiser : Tap Commander : HDD Info : PCControl : Signal Monitor : MyInfo
URC-7555 remote: TF5800 320GB 2.5", Recommended_5800.tfd + CfPePsScUUuWfZ
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mavison
Posted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:14 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 242
All the m'plex were 96/100 or better, according to the TM retune, and fscheck did not show anything obvious to me.

But I will run SignalMonitor & fscheck again in the morning and post the results.

_________________
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; PruneEPG 1.0; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.53; MHEG On/Off A3; (Power Restore V0.7.7);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 10/1/20
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ccs
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:10 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2614
Your firmware patch list looks very long, are they all needed?

Maybe post you MyInfo log.

_________________
TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -FmXl+CtEzIScVdZ
TAPs: EIT Sub v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; Extend v1.7; MyStuff 6.6;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 20/10/14
ccsx
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mavison
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:17 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 242
I tried Signal Monitor v0.54 (latest version according to Top Manager)... and it just seemed to provoke a VF&F whenevr I tried it. So I tried using TopManager to measure signals on both tuners on Channels 41, 44, 31, 29 & 37 and the lowest strength Min/Max/Av was 96/96/97, and all the qualities were 100/100/100.

The MyInfo log is...
Code:
MyInfo B5.6 Logging settings etc on: 11/1/2020 at 11:31

Waiting for other TAPs to load and settle

Ini file found
Starting to record data 124 seconds from boot

System ID: 456
TV Output: Type = Auto, Video = RGB, RF Channel = 36
Reported firmware version: TF-NPT 5.13.65T dated Oct 10 2009
Base firmware version: 5.13.65

Running TAPS:
   Slot 0: PcControl B1.4  :  Toppy control from PC
   Slot 1: EIT Sub (Game) v0.6  :  Provides faster, simpler and more robust EIT data collection, except when playing games
   Slot 2: EPG2MEI v0.96  :  Dumps the EPG data to disk as EPG.mei, with changes since last time in EPG_diff.mei
   Slot 3: Extend v1.7  :  Uses the Accurate Recording info to extend recordings (safely)
   Slot 4: Font Manager 1.0d  :  Manage TAP Fonts
   Slot 5: PruneEPG 1.0  :  Program to remove unnecessary entries from the EIT table
   Slot 6: MyInfo B5.6  :  Displays & records Toppy basic info
   Slot 7: Power Restore V0.7.7  :  Power Restore
   Slot 8: MyStuff 6.6  :  UI Replacement
   Slot 9: SecCache (UK) v0.4  :  Optimal (UK) section caching to reduce the load on the Toppy
   Slot 10: TF5000 Display v1.53  :  Controls the LED display
   Slot 11: MHEG On/Off A3  :  MHEG control
   Slot 12: fsSave 1.1  :  File System Save (of key structures)
   Slots 13 - 15 not used


Installed patch list:-  Ab Bf Bm Bq C0 Cb Ce Cf Ck Cp Ct Cw Cy D De Ec Ee Ef Ep Er Es Ev Ez F Fs Gm H He I Kt Mh Nf Ot P Pc Pe Ps R Ra Re Rh Rp Rs S Sc Sd Sl Sr St T2 Td Te Tf Tp Ts U Uu Vr Wf Xp Xw Z Xl
Firmware MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009  modified thus: -Fm-Sy+Bm+C0+Cb+Cf+Ct+D+Ev+Ez+Fs+I+Pe+Ps+Sc+U+Uu+Wf+Z
Patch Decode Links - Will explain your patches:
   MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 :- http://www.toppy.org.uk/~simonc/dp.html?p=AbBfBmBqC0CbCeCfCkCpCtCwCyDDeEcEeEfEpErEsEvEzFFsGmHHeIKtMhNfOtPPcPePsRRaReRhRpRsSScSdSlSrStT2TdTeTfTpTsUUuVrWfXpXwZXl
   Missing patches:- http://www.toppy.org.uk/~simonc/dp.html?p=FmSy
   Extra patches:- http://www.toppy.org.uk/~simonc/dp.html?p=BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ

Time Mode set to Auto
Time Offset set to Auto

Found 35 TV channels and 12 Radio channels
No channel problems detected
LCNs of programme channels found on Tx Ch 29 are: 12, 20, 27, 30, 34, 40, 44, 203,
LCNs of programme channels found on Tx Ch 31 are: 11, 19, 45, 88, 233, 731, 732,
LCNs of programme channels found on Tx Ch 37 are: 25, 79, 206,
LCNs of programme channels found on Tx Ch 41 are: 1, 2, 9, 201, 202, 231, 250, 700, 702, 703, 704, 705, 707, 719, 720, 721, 722,
LCNs of programme channels found on Tx Ch 44 are: 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 13, 14, 15, 18, 24, 28, 33,

Interactive Off
Timeshift On

Memory - Free: 16 MB,  Available: 16 MB
Disk - Total: 932 GB, Free: 226 GB

302 recordings (434 GB) + 2 deleted (2 GB) in 35 folders (+ 14 empty folders)

Time since boot: 0:0:2 (d:h:m)

Suggested signature for Toppy forum - copy following lines to signature block at http://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/profile.php?mode=editprofile
[size=10][b]TF5800[/b], TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -FmSy+BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ
 [b]TAPs:[/b] PcControl B1.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; PruneEPG 1.0; MyInfo B5.6; Power Restore V0.7.7; MyStuff 6.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.53; MHEG On/Off A3; fsSave 1.1;
Sig generated by [url=http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/emjbtaps/MyInfo/MyInfo.zip]MyInfo[/url] on 11/1/20[/size]

Note that the list of 'Extra patches' does seem long ... but I think most (if not all) are in the recommended FW list as well!

I have posted the fsCheck log in the dedicated thread at https://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=273750#273750

None of the main software had changed for years, and until the recent problems has only ever had the very occasional glitch.

I think my next move will be to dismantle and do some PSU checks.

_________________
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; PruneEPG 1.0; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.53; MHEG On/Off A3; (Power Restore V0.7.7);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 10/1/20
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:37 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4457
The extra patches are those that are not in the normal patches required for MyStuff i.e. a forum thread may have suggested them but they are not usual.

MyStuff can enter recovery mode if it it detects that there are no current events in the EPG (I usually have to dismiss this when I boot up my test toppy after it hasn't been used for some time - curiously, I didn't have to do that this morning!)

[edit]The fsCheck report indicates that the disk is fine
probably easiest to assume PSU related and replace the remaining capacitors
[/edit]


Geoff

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
Sig generated by EMJB's MyInfo.tap on 29/12/18
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ccs
Posted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:03 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2614
FWIW, these are the extra patches....

https://www.toppy.org.uk/~simonc/dp.html?p=BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ+

_________________
TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -FmXl+CtEzIScVdZ
TAPs: EIT Sub v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; Extend v1.7; MyStuff 6.6;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 20/10/14
ccsx
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mavison
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:26 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 242
Thank to ccs and Geoff for the suggestions about patches. I only tended to add ones that I thought would be useful to me ... trouble is those thoughts were so long ago I now have no idea what the reasons were! As the build has been stable for me for years, I am leaving them well alone for the moment.

Yesterday I opened all 3 of my Toppies to check the PSUs:
Code:
  1 is the main one in use with problems (some caps changed).
  2 was my sons (some caps changed).
  3 was a spare (possibly with a duff tuner).

           Normal       1 Main       2 Sons       3 Spare
+5         5            5.04         4.96         5.04
Gnd
Gnd
+12        12-12.8      12.53        11.49        12.17
====
+30        30-31        30.8         32.5         30.9
+22        24-25        24.4         26.0         24.9
+17        16.5-17.1    17.23        17.73        16.9
Gnd
+8         7.4-7.6      7.75         7.13         7.65
Gnd
+5         5            5.04         4.98         5.0
Gnd
+3.3       3.3       >> 2.88 <<      3.25         3.25
Gnd
+15        15-15.6      15.71        16.20        15.51
Gnd

The only obvious discrepancy to me is that the 3.3v is very low on Toppy 1 (Main), and the associated C25 looks slightly domed. As I found a report that this could lead to lost channels I thought that would be the culprit. Strangely, although I was sure some caps had been changed, C25 is a green Samxon which may indicate an original. Are there any other visible problems?

My next move was to replace the PSU in Toppy 1 (Main) with that from Toppy 2 (Sons). That failed because Toppy 1 was from 2006 with the clip connectors, but Toppy 2 & 3 were both from 2005 with no clips. Damn!

So I moved the disc+SATA convertor from Toppy 1 to Toppy 2. After I had managed to re-tune it it appeared ok - indeed the signals measured by TopManager were 100 across all muxes and both tuners, which is better than Toppy 1! However, it seems that after some power-ons MyStuff fails to start - indeed, I suspect the disc is not visible, as the native Archive is not visible and USB does not connect. So perhaps there is another problem with this combination.

While I ponder this new problem, I will also debate whether to send the PSU from Toppy 1 to Andy for a full service, so I can return to using that Toppy if I wish.

_________________
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; PruneEPG 1.0; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.53; MHEG On/Off A3; (Power Restore V0.7.7);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 10/1/20
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:37 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4457
Your son's toppy has readings that are not in the "Normal" range that you have shown.

Try swapping the psu with that in the spare toppy ? (it's readings are just about in the range you specified).

Perhaps measure the modified box before you swap?

Geoff

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
Sig generated by EMJB's MyInfo.tap on 29/12/18
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mavison
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:49 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 242
I agree that the 12v on Toppy 2 (Sons) is rather low - if that is more significant than the other minor variations I will try putting PSU from Toppy 3 (Spare) into Toppy 2 (Sons). And I suppose the +12 is part of the disc supply.

[This is getting rather like find-the-lady!]

_________________
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; PruneEPG 1.0; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.53; MHEG On/Off A3; (Power Restore V0.7.7);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 10/1/20
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mavison
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:48 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 242
I am now using Toppy 2 (Sons) box, fitted with the PSU from Toppy 3 (Spare) and the hard disc & SATA convertor from Toppy 1 (Main) ... and all voltages are within limits, and in a brief test all seems ok. Phew!

I now just have to decide what (if anything) to do with the other PSUs.

Thanks for the help.

_________________
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; PruneEPG 1.0; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.53; MHEG On/Off A3; (Power Restore V0.7.7);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 10/1/20
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andyfras
Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 2:30 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3464
C25 is the cause of the 3.3V being low on Toppy 1 and is the cause of the problems you were seeing. This suggests that it hasn't had any capacitors replaced, as C25 was always included, even in the earliest sets.

Toppy 2 seems a bit odd as the 12V and 8V are slightly low, but some other voltages are high. Maybe some piecemeal replacement has been done, perhaps by Turbosat, which could also apply to Toppy 1, as Turbosat only replaced capacitors that were faulty at the time.

Your spare board voltages are pretty well textbook.

Note that 'normal' for 22V is 24.5V, and for 8V is 7.5V; neither of these are critical. The 17V and 15V are always about 1.5V apart, but again are not critical.

_________________
Toppy PSU repair service or capacitor kits for DIY available - PM me for details.
MyStuff 6.6 : Little Clock : MHEGOnOff : Extend : EPG2MEI : SecCache : EIT_Sub : TSSaver : Prune EPG
Channel Organiser : Tap Commander : HDD Info : PCControl : Signal Monitor : MyInfo
URC-7555 remote: TF5800 320GB 2.5", Recommended_5800.tfd + CfPePsScUUuWfZ
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mavison
Posted: Wed Jan 29, 2020 7:37 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 May 2007 Posts: 242
Just an update: Having used my Toppy2 with PSU3 and SATA disc for some time, I found that it worked fine once turned on, BUT whenever it was powered on (manually or by timer) the disc spun up but was not recognised. A rapid power-off and power-on was required to get the disc working OK.

I consulted Andy, and sent PSU1 & 2 to him to be fettled on Monday - and they were returned today (Wednesday). My main Toppy1 now has PSU1 re-fitted, with the SATA disc, and all its problems appear to be resolved.

Many thanks to Andy for his help and very rapid repair.

If I get chance I will test Toppy 2 & PSU2, but I expect that to work as well.

_________________
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CbCfCtDEvEzFsIPePsScUUuWfZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; PruneEPG 1.0; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.53; MHEG On/Off A3; (Power Restore V0.7.7);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 10/1/20
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