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alan_m
Posted: Thu Nov 14, 2019 7:46 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Oct 2006 Posts: 3520
slimgym wrote:
jimi wrote:
I noticed that, would have been nice with if they had one with 3 cable/terrestrial tuners, I'd be very interested in that configuration Smile
Agreed. I'm not sure the simultaneous recording ability in that configuration.


Although no longer in production i have a box with two satellite and two terrestrial tuners. I can record from all 4 at the same time.

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goodolpete
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 10:22 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 15 Jan 2008 Posts: 197
Quote:
Although no longer in production i have a box with two satellite and two terrestrial tuners. I can record from all 4 at the same time.


Alan,
I want to update to something like a H7C zgemma. I like to know
in advance what I’m going to do, so I’ve been searching for some
guide on how to set up terrestrial tuners in E2. Ive searched YouTube,
and downloaded all the manuals I can find for E2 boxes with T2
tuners, but have been unable to find a pictorial guide. The closest I’ve
found is a WOS vid on how to set up ABM in freeview.
Do you know of one?
GOP

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TAPs: PcControl B1.4; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MHEG On/Off A3; MyInfo B5.6; PruneEPG 1.0;
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ccs
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 11:30 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2602
Freeview really isn't very difficult, tell the box which tuners you've got, setup the transmitter you use from within ABM and then scan.

Some clues here ... https://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=271252#271252

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alan_m
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 1:10 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Oct 2006 Posts: 3520
ccs wrote:
Freeview really isn't very difficult, tell the box which tuners you've got, setup the transmitter you use from within ABM and then scan.

Some clues here ... https://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=271252#271252


Yes - faily easy.
In the Tuners and Scanning menu the box will have a list of the tuners fitted.
Select each terrestrial tuner in turn and select DVB-T2 (the terrestrial tuners are usually hybrid so the other option may be for cable , DVB-C). You do not set the region in the tuner setup although there are some menu options to do so You set the region to All regions United Kingdom (Europe DVB-T/T2). The region settings in the tuner setup are a throwback to when AutoBoquetmaker wasn't included in the image (or was less sophisticated) .

You have to remember these boxes are sold world wide and many setup options for tuners/scanning are based on the need to support multiple countries and widely different broadcasts. The support for UK Freeview and Freesat channels is good when you use AutoboquetMaker. Always use Autoboquetmaker in the UK when scanning channels rather than any other method the box may be capable of.

You then go into AutoBoquetMaker and select providers. A list will be downloaded and its here that you set your TV transmitter/region which then, when you scan, will only scan for the frequencies (MUX) from that transmitter.

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EMJB
Posted: Fri Nov 15, 2019 2:50 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 08 Jul 2005 Posts: 3643 Location: Maldon Essex
alan_m wrote:

You then go into AutoBoquetMaker and select providers. A list will be downloaded and its here that you set your TV transmitter/region which then, when you scan, will only scan for the frequencies (MUX) from that transmitter.


While this will work satisfactorily for the majority of users, a few users will come across one or other of the following issues:

(1) If they cannot receive all the signals from the selected transmitter, the missing channels will still appear in the channel lists and in the EPG, which I found irritating. In the case of fill-in stations I think all the channels from the parent will appear even though 50% or less will be viewable.

(2) While the available providers cover a large proportion of the population, they do not normally include the many fill-in stations.

The solution to both these problems is to use "terrestrial finder" to generate a user-specific provider, but this has problems associated with the handling of signal levels in the Enigma2 code with some tuners, and unfortunately makes little effort to warn the user when incorrect data is being received such that wrong signals are chosen. I had no luck in arousing interest in fixing the signal level & related data issues, and my suggestions for adding warnings were rejected.

I did start to produce some user notes with the aim of helping newbies, but unfortunately there is no tradition of generating and maintaining such documentation for OpenVix etc, and unfortunately I am no longer in a position to do so.

EMJB

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cuthbert
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:56 pm Reply with quote
Regular contributor Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 94
Testing update.

I'm running Toppy/Mystuff alongside a Pi 2 running OSMC/TVHeadend and a Pi 4 running Kodi/TVHeadend.

* For now I have set aside the Pi 4/Kodi rig. It isn't stable enough and there are issues with picture quality. OSMC is a shrink wrapped version of Kodi. It isn't yet available for the Pi 4 but soon will be (says the OSMC blog). The Pi 4 is a beast. Makes the GUI run almost too fast and, as I've written here, you should be able to shift recordings off it at a speed of up to 1GB every 10 seconds. Pi 4/OSMC is the future. But like that old beer advert says, "it isn't ready yet".

* The Pi2/OSMC does seem to provide a stable alternative to the Toppy.

Generally:
+ It is fast, a little faster than the Toppy.
+ It responds to every keystroke without fail, unlike the Toppy.
+ It is always on. There is no booting delay when you want to watch TV.
- The GUI isn't as pretty or well designed as Mystuff, even after you tweak it.
+ Disk based activities are instant. Eg. You press record and it is recording before your finger leaves the button. Whereas with the Toppy, there is always a delay, even if the disk is already spinning.
+ It is silent. My Toppy is noisy. Partly my fault for putting it inside furniture that acts like a sounding board. (I've tried to deaden it, but failed)

For the above reasons I actually watch the Pi in preference to the Toppy now. Although there isn't a great deal in it. And the nice MyStuff GUI pulls me back sometimes.

Power:
Testing with a Wattmeter shows that the Toppy uses 25W when the disk is spinning, 17W when the disk is still, and 7.5W in standby. The Pi uses 12W all the time, whatever it is doing. More testing due here, and I am waiting on more parts from Amazon. I think I can get the Pi power down to 8W or so.

Cost:
Tuners are expensive. I already had the Pi and the disk but have spent £69 on a dual tuner and £21 on the remote control device. Buy it all from scratch and you might spend £170 or so. This compares with about £260 for a top-of-the-line Humax. The Pi solution is probably more powerful and desirable. But which is better depends on whether you are into tweaking or prefer an off the shelf solution.

Misc:
+ Somebody asked about channel logos. With the Pi it is just a matter of downloading each logo and putting it in a predefined folder. If the file name matches the channel name (eg "BBC 1 East W.png"), then the GUI uses that image.
+ About recording duplication. Both the Toppy and the Pi avoid duplicating files. In addition, the Pi/OSMC keeps a database of past recordings. It uses this to avoid recording the same thing again, even after you have viewed and deleted the first video file. Handy for saving space. You set the lifetime of the record (I set it to 2 years). With the Toppy, I think the file has to be kept in order to avoid a duplicate recording (?).
+ I quite like watching TV Recordings on a Tablet, at the kitchen table. This is one thing the OSMC streaming allows. I wasn't looking for it. But now the capability is there, I quite like it. Again, it is down to personal preference.

+ You could connect a Pi to any TV in the house and watch TV or recordings without an aerial, wirelessly. A Pi zero might be sufficient for this. Sooner or later I will test it. Humax hardware allows something similar, I believe.

+ Other things can be integrated into Kodi. Eg. I can watch Netflix via the same GUI, or show Youtube videos. Not a huge deal but might simplify an AV setup.

Testing continues. Sorry for the long write up.

Cheers,
Jim.

_________________
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jimi
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:15 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 200
Not a problem with the write up, the more info the better AFAIC.
Keep reporting your findings, assuming your Pi boots off an SD card it would be easy (if your willing) to get a copy of your setup, as I said before I already have a Pi 3 sitting behind my Toppy for remote access so I would only need tuners and a remote.

cuthbert wrote:

With the Toppy, I think the file has to be kept in order to avoid a duplicate recording (?).

No the Toppy/MyStuff keeps a database of your timers even after you have deleted the file, so it can avoid duplicate programs and series
Jimi

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TAPs: PcControl B1.4; Extend v1.7; EPG2MEI v0.96; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; Font Manager 1.0d; MHEG On/Off A3; (MyInfo B5.6); PruneEPG 1.0; MyStuff 6.6;
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cuthbert
Posted: Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:38 pm Reply with quote
Regular contributor Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 94
Cheers Jimi. Will do.

jimi wrote:
No the Toppy/MyStuff keeps a database of your timers even after you have deleted the file, so it can avoid duplicate programs and series
Jimi


Mystuff continues to keep up with 2019 software. Very Happy. And we aren't even that surprised.

_________________
TF5800, IA On, TS On, F/W: 5.13.65AbBfBqCeCkCwCyDeEcEfErEsFGmHHeKtMhNfOtPPcPfRRaRe
RhRpRsSSdSrStSyT2TdTfXpXw
TAPs: MyStuff 6.5; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyInfo B5.6;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 14/9/1
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jimi
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 12:00 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 200
cuthbert wrote:

Mystuff continues to keep up with 2019 software. Very Happy. And we aren't even that surprised.


I'm not surprised at all, what does surprise me is that over the years none of the PVR manufacturers have picked up on how good MyStuff is and done anything about it.
Topfield in particular could taken it onboard and produced a box that would have put them in a league of their own for terrestrial TV PVR's.
All the development and testing had been done for them by the MyStuff Team and the Toppy owners, I don't see why some kind of deal wasn't done with the MS Team. Rolling Eyes

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TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+Pe
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; Extend v1.7; EPG2MEI v0.96; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; Font Manager 1.0d; MHEG On/Off A3; (MyInfo B5.6); PruneEPG 1.0; MyStuff 6.6;
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alan_m
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 6:10 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Oct 2006 Posts: 3520
jimi wrote:
cuthbert wrote:

Mystuff continues to keep up with 2019 software. Very Happy. And we aren't even that surprised.


I'm not surprised at all, what does surprise me is that over the years none of the PVR manufacturers have picked up on how good MyStuff is and done anything about it.
Topfield in particular could taken it onboard and produced a box that would have put them in a league of their own for terrestrial TV PVR's.
All the development and testing had been done for them by the MyStuff Team and the Toppy owners, I don't see why some kind of deal wasn't done with the MS Team. Rolling Eyes


Topfield never really understood their UK user base.

In general manufacturers don't want a system with many configuration options as it creates a nightmare scenario for after sales support. Joe blogs has problem getting something to work, rings up aftersales support and then has to spend an hour attempting to explain how the box has been customised away from default settings. It’s probably why all the better interfaces on Toppy/Enigma2/Humax boxes have been developed and maintained by hobbyists and the support has come solely from fellow users.

In addition, it could be argued that the majority of the market place just wants something that you just plug in for the first time and it works without having to read the manual. Those using Mystuff have probably gained most of their knowledge about how it works and how it can be used/configured by reading these forums over a considerable period of time. Presented with a new box with Mystuff installed for the first time how many people would struggle with it? It’s the reason why Enigma2 boxes and a home designed system should come with a warning that its not the solution for those without a little technical knowledge and/or those not willing to spend some time on a learning curve.

Even with some of the Mystuff functionality it still requires users to keep it up to date, something a manufacturer is unlikely to do on a box designed 15+ years ago. You would be lucky to find a manufacturer that would support a box more than a year old with updated software because all their resources would be targeted at the next box they want to introduce into the market.

Yes, Mystuff works well on a Toppy but how long did it take to develop? The design life cycle for a manufacturer to produce a new box (with near 100% working software) is very short these days. Many of the Enigma 2 boxes mentioned in the various Toppy forum threads are no longer being manufactured – in general they all have been replaced with boxes with more functionality, 4K UHD TV and IPTV etc.

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jimi
Posted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:52 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 200
I don't see why it would be a problem, mobile phones, tablets, laptops and PC's all have more configuration & customisation options than you could shake a stick at, doesn't seem to have done their sales any harm or stopped people buying them.
A Toppy with Mystuff will work straight out of the box with the default settings, all you need to learn is what the buttons do, same as with any device that uses a remote. Some people will be happy with that, others will customise, the options are there, but you don't have to use them.
If anyone had taken MyStuff onboard at the time then they could have continued to develop to suit future boxes same as any other software/operating system is (linux, windows, android etc) but they didn't, mores the pity.

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TAPs: PcControl B1.4; Extend v1.7; EPG2MEI v0.96; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; Font Manager 1.0d; MHEG On/Off A3; (MyInfo B5.6); PruneEPG 1.0; MyStuff 6.6;
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cuthbert
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:20 pm Reply with quote
Regular contributor Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 94
Topfield sold a leading edge PVR with an open API. Did they realize that someone (the MyStuff team) would use it to rewrite the entire UI ? Hard to say, but it brought Topfield many sales and put their product years ahead of the competition, at no extra cost to them. For example, I would never have bought a 5810 if MyStuff had not existed. But the Company had other problems and failed to capitalize on their advantage. Indeed, Humax chased them out of town with an inferior product.

A PVR is just a few off-the-shelf components in a box. Making one is quite easy. The expensive bit is developing the bespoke software. Given the success of the 5810, it is surprising that nobody has made a PVR with an open source OS and well known API, bundled a minimal GUI, then left it to the FOSS community to write and support a "proper" system. It could be a very profitable exercise, you would think.

_________________
TF5800, IA On, TS On, F/W: 5.13.65AbBfBqCeCkCwCyDeEcEfErEsFGmHHeKtMhNfOtPPcPfRRaRe
RhRpRsSSdSrStSyT2TdTfXpXw
TAPs: MyStuff 6.5; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyInfo B5.6;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 14/9/1
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jimi
Posted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:54 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 29 Mar 2006 Posts: 200
My entry into digital TV was a second hand Ondigital box that I got given for free just after ITV Digital crashed and burned in 2002.



I used it to get Freeview when it first started in 2002, the box was terrible, slow, clunky and froze/crashed on a regular basis, however it got me into digital TV which was great as my analog reception wasn't very good. (used to lose Channel 5 at night and generally the picture quality wasn't great)
Stayed with that as Freeview continually improved, and decided I'd like something more updated with a recording facility,as my my analog NICAM VCR was cutting it any more.
So I bought a 5800 in 2006, cost me around £260 (which incidently was around the price of my first NICAM VCR years before) it was a revelation compared with the Ondigital box ... then I found this forum and discovered Mystuff Shocked It changed our viewing habits forever, we have never looked back, and I still have still the same 5800+MyStuff today.
I'm sure I've have moved on from the Toppy years ago if it hadn't been for MyStuff Very Happy

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TAPs: PcControl B1.4; Extend v1.7; EPG2MEI v0.96; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; Font Manager 1.0d; MHEG On/Off A3; (MyInfo B5.6); PruneEPG 1.0; MyStuff 6.6;
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YorkshireJumbo
Posted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:18 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 794
Same here. The Toppy is the primary box for our viewing, but I use a YouView box for watching stuff in HD. I still use the Toppy to find the stuff I want to watch in HD though. Our original YV box was free with a BT subsrciption, but I didn't renew that after a year though I kept the box. I've just bought a secondhand Humax UHD YV box for £50 as the first one kept hanging. Still the same clunky interface, but the difference in speed is huge and the box is tiny - about half the size in every dimension! I'm still toying with the idea of a WoS box, but SWMBO prefers the interfaces she knows to having to learn a new one Rolling Eyes

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cuthbert
Posted: Sun Nov 24, 2019 9:06 pm Reply with quote
Regular contributor Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 94
Testing update. I managed to find a quick way to download and use all channel logos.

Also, regarding power consumption, the whole setup runs at on 6 W now, even when doing multiple recordings. That's if your storage takes the form of a memory stick. With an external spinning disk it is more like 12W.

I've written this procedure explaining how to build a similar setup:
http://unixetc.co.uk/2019/11/22/how-to-watch-and-record-live-tv-with-a-raspberry-pi/


Jim.

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TF5800, IA On, TS On, F/W: 5.13.65AbBfBqCeCkCwCyDeEcEfErEsFGmHHeKtMhNfOtPPcPfRRaRe
RhRpRsSSdSrStSyT2TdTfXpXw
TAPs: MyStuff 6.5; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyInfo B5.6;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 14/9/1
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