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Paulie_UK
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:24 am Reply with quote
Joined: 09 Jan 2011 Posts: 16
Hi all,

So its come to that time of year when my Toppy decides to go off the rails. I've had a few occurrences of the old re-start loop but once you've fixed it once it doesn't take too much effort to fix again.

This time though, its gone too far. Having amassed a good 500+ hours of tv I came to my Toppy to find it doing an EPG scan, about 2 hours after it should have switched itself off. Went to watch some TV, hit the archive button and found it wiped, no recordings at all Sad

Switched it off and removed the drive straight away. So today I've used topfHDRW/Doctor to do a scan/match which after about 6 hours resulted in about 60 files, each between 30 seconds and 2 minutes long, so basically its an all out loss.

So reading through the help files (or it may have been posts on here) there was some mention of formatting the drive before scanning it. So first question, is it worth formatting and scanning again? Or is this only for if the drive is unreadable on connection?

I recently had a laptop drive which failed, and so spent a good bit of time looking at recovery programs. Most of them only seem capable of recovering deleted files, but i did find a couple that say they can recover files where the drive has become corrupt. Is it worth a shot? I'm wondering if it'd recognize the .rec files being they are a none windows standard format?

Thanks in advance for any advice/response!

_________________
TF5810, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MHEG On/Off A3; MyInfo B5.6;
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 1:06 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4384
I don't believe reformatting the drive first will make any difference (but I could be wrong as I haven't tried it).

The Scan and Match mechanism in HDRW works by detecting the time signals present in recordings and using this to determine which disk clusters can be part of the file and the order that they need to be in. It can only detect recording files (normally in \DataFiles or it's subdirectories).

I have written, but not yet released , TopMedic. It uses similar techniques to TopfHDRW but can also detect file info from orphan directories. While the orphan directories can be useful in determining the name of the original file, it is really the time signals that determine the order and length of recordings i.e. if TopfHDRW struggled then TopMedic might do so as well.

If you want to send me the disk (you pay postage both ways) then I will try to see what I can recover for you (I might be able to tweak TopMedic to recover more of your disk).

I also have a tap (fsSave) on the TopManager web site which saves the file structures each time the toppy boots; while it is too late for you this time, you might consider using it in case you have a similar occurrence.

Wiping is commonly caused by recording from a poor quality mux/channel so, at some point you need to check your signals. It can also be caused by memory corruption and/or the disk being full (there are probably other causes, including a failing PSU)

Please send me a pm if you want me to try to recover the data for you.

Note: Others reading this post might like to consider installing my fsSave tap
(Use TopManager Tools| Install Files| fsSave)

Geoff

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
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andyfras
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:11 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3452
Paulie_UK - have you had the PSU capacitors replaced yet?

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ryclark
Posted: Sat Nov 08, 2014 2:01 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 1604 Location: Shropshire
As far as I am aware doing a format in the Toppy only remakes the boot sectors and file system part of the disc, just a small part of the disc. The remainder of your recorded programs are not touched. However, like you, I had a recent crash where TopfHDRW was singularly unsuccessful in recovering any recognisable programs despite many hours of scanning and lost of recovered clusters. I wish I knew why it doesn't seem to work now. Crying or Very sad

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TF5800t, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Fm
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; MyInfo B5.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; MHEG On/Off A3; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; TSSaver v0.5;
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Paulie_UK
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:15 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 09 Jan 2011 Posts: 16
Thanks for the input guys, in response....
Geoff - I thought the same on the reformatting, and looks like ryclark agrees so wont bother trying that, i guess its only repeating what the Toppy has decided to do anyway.
Thanks for the offer of attempted recovery, I may come back to you on that.
Your FsSave tap sounds interesting, if I'd had that would it still be case of sending the HD back to you to do the actual recovery until you release TopMedic? Either way I'm going to stick it on, as you say in your thread it just adds that extra option.
As far as i know my signal is good, but will check this when I get it back in full working order. My disk is 1.5TB and was half full so no space problems there. memory corruption, i guess there's no way to know? PSU issue is possible.

Andyfras - No, capacitors have never been touched. Going on when I joined this forum my Toppy is between 4-5 years old, which probably means I have been living on the edge for a while. I do have a green HD, and a fan fitted to my case to get some air moving through so preventative measures for overheating have been taken (it is overheating that causes them to fail?). I did see a thread about your swapout service, did you ever get enough spares to extend this to the 5810?

ryclark - Thanks for the info, so i guess its like a PC 'Quick Format' that just scraps the FAT then you re-write over the actual files when you start to save to the disk again.

I'm currently running an 'off the shelf' PC recovery program, it may or may not work and to be honest not holding out much hope but thought it worth a shot. I'll report back in several hours once its finished.....

_________________
TF5810, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MHEG On/Off A3; MyInfo B5.6;
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andyfras
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:34 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3452
Paulie_UK wrote:
Going on when I joined this forum my Toppy is between 4-5 years old, which probably means I have been living on the edge for a while. I do have a green HD, and a fan fitted to my case to get some air moving through so preventative measures for overheating have been taken (it is overheating that causes them to fail?).

Even with a fan, 5 years would be good for a 5810. Are any of the green capacitors doming?

Quote:
I did see a thread about your swapout service, did you ever get enough spares to extend this to the 5810?

I've only got 1 spare 5810 PSU, so I've been reluctant to offer it as part of the exchange service. Please PM me for options.

_________________
Toppy PSU repair service or capacitor kits for DIY available - PM me for details.
MyStuff 6.6 : Little Clock : MHEGOnOff : Extend : EPG2MEI : SecCache : EIT_Sub : TSSaver : Prune EPG
Channel Organiser : Tap Commander : HDD Info : PCControl : Signal Monitor : MyInfo
URC-7555 remote: TF5800 320GB 2.5", Recommended_5800.tfd + CfPePsScUUuWfZ
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Bizman
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 4:40 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 1707
Paulie_UK wrote:
I do have a green HD, and a fan fitted to my case to get some air moving through so preventative measures for overheating have been taken (it is overheating that causes them to fail?).
Capacitors have internal resistance and the original cheap & nasty Toppy ones more so. it is the surge current through this internal resistance that contributes to failure. Those supplied in the kits from andyfras are good quality low resistance types and will see you in good stead.

_________________
TF5810, F/W: 5.15.09T 4/9/2009 -FmTe+EzHsVb
TAPs: EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; MHEG On/Off A3; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; PruneEPG 1.0; EPG2MEI v0.96; QuickJump 1.72; Extend v1.7; (fsSave 1.1);
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Other TAPs : FsCheck, Channel Organiser. PSU Caps 7/2/2011 Tx: Mendip. TV: Samsung (32"), NSLU2, STB: Labgear FV300. PC Acer Aspire One with Win7 Starter
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 5:04 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4384
Your recovery program is unlikely to be of much use; as far as I am aware, the only program, before TopMedic, that understands the toppy FAT24 file structure is TopfHDRW.

If you think you might want to recover data from the disk then don't write to it anymore (especially adding the fsSave tap)

Your best bet is to send me the disk and, at the same time, send the psu to andyfras for a repair. I would try to post it back to you after 3 days. Depending on the weight of the disk, postage will be 2.80 each way ( 4.30 for signed, depending on weight).

Geoff

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
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Paulie_UK
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:50 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 09 Jan 2011 Posts: 16
Again thanks, every time I come on this forum everyone is such help, moving to another device is in the back of my mind but I doubt any have the support developed as this one....

Andyfras - Looking at the caps, they all still look pretty flat to me, although a more electronically minded eye may see them differently. If i could work out how to host an image somewhere I'd post a link up to an image.
Although i have seen enough posts on here to know that 5 years is pushing it either way. And taking you up on sending the PSU over to have them replaced is a strong possibility!

Bizman - Good info, thanks. Not sure I would be confident in changing them over myself but as per last paragraph, sending to Andy is probably the route I'll take.

Geoff - Yeah i thought it a long shot, it's about 6 hours in now so I'm gona let it run its course and see what happens.
Sorry i hadn't mentioned but my Toppy is currently running on a spare HD I had. When this one went i mirror'd the files onto a blank disk so the disk in question hasn't been used/changed other than the attempted recovery scans. I meant when i get everything back together I will then drop your tap on.
Sounds like a plan, If Andy had my PSU then you could have a go at data recovery while my Toppy was out of action.
I'm heading away for a few days with work tomorrow, so will PM you both on my return to make arrangements.

_________________
TF5810, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MHEG On/Off A3; MyInfo B5.6;
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Paulie_UK
Posted: Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:30 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 09 Jan 2011 Posts: 16
File recovery update - After 7 hours of scanning I get a message that the software cant find any lost partitions. And would I like to scan for lost files (which i thought i was doing in the first place). After an hour it claimed to have found 412,000 files!

Now i did have a good few programs recorded, but not that many and it still had about 80% left on the status bar.

So as suspected, no joy Sad

_________________
TF5810, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MHEG On/Off A3; MyInfo B5.6;
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juwlz
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:48 pm Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 12 Aug 2005 Posts: 10801 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire (Hannington transmitter)
Paulie_UK wrote:
File recovery update - After 7 hours of scanning I get a message that the software cant find any lost partitions. And would I like to scan for lost files (which i thought i was doing in the first place). After an hour it claimed to have found 412,000 files!
Not in the least bit surprising, as the Toppy uses a proprietary file system that your PC recovery software almost certainly doesn't understand.

Julie

_________________
5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CfCtFsIMPePsR3UUuUxZ
5810, TS On, F/W: F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 +BmCfCtFsR3Z
MyStuff info; Help!; Reference
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:31 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4384
Paulie_UK wrote:
When this one went i mirror'd the files onto a blank disk so the disk in question hasn't been used/changed

Were the two disks the same model number? (you can't mirror copy a toppy disk to another drive unless they have identical geometry - even disks with the same model number might not comply with this!). If the geometry was slightly different, this would explain why TopfHDRW didn't acheve much.

Your original disk should be safe being analysed by TopMedic (assuming Royal Mail doesn't damage or lose it). This is because, by default, TopMedic doesn't write to the disk being recovered; all "changes" are made in memory and written to a RecoveryPoint.bin file on the pc. This means that the data needing to be recovered is not compromised by the recovery process. Even after committing the changes back to the disk, TopMedic can "rollback" the directory structures to that when it was first run (assuming other files haven't been copied onto the disk during the recovery process)

Geoff

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
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Paulie_UK
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:09 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 09 Jan 2011 Posts: 16
Hi Geoff,
It was the original disk that had the problems that I was scanning. The mirror'd disk is in my toppy. And ok maybe i used the wrong term, what i meant was i copied all the files from the disk that formatted itself, onto another disk so i didn't have to spend the time installing taps and settings and re-making the series links etc. So the disk itself that needs the recovery, is the one that was in the toppy and hasn't had anything written to it, it was only linked up to my PC to grab the files and attempt the recovery scanns.

_________________
TF5810, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MHEG On/Off A3; MyInfo B5.6;
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 11:21 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4384
@Paulie_UK

Ah, that explains it.
From my past life at work, I took "mirror" to be a block for block copy i.e. totally ignoring the file system.

Your post also indicates that you still had some files retrievable so the disk is only slightly corrupted i.e. the data is probably retrievable. As you managed to copy taps, I suspect it is just the DataFiles folder that has been corrupted.
If it like another disk I've seen, it might just be that the two index entries at the start of the directory have been mashed.

Geoff

[edit] When you say it hasn't be written to, does this also mean that you didn't write the changes back after scanning with TopfHDRW? [/edit]

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
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Paulie_UK
Posted: Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:12 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 09 Jan 2011 Posts: 16
Hi Geoff,
Yes the taps were all intact, a copy and paste from one drive to another and they all worked fine, series links all picked up and the EPG data was also up to date.

And no I didn't write the changes back to the drive after scanning with TopfHDRW (I don't think), I just copied out what it found to my PC and played them through Realplayer to establish if it was anything worthwhile to recover. With alternate data recovery in mind i thought best not to make any changes to the disk at all. Although if this would help i can do the scan again before I post it to you, but from the way you term it I'm assuming this gives me better chance of recovery that nothing's been changed on the disk?

_________________
TF5810, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MHEG On/Off A3; MyInfo B5.6;
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