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<  AV & other discussions  ~  Upscaling your Toppy 5800

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thesaint
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 1:19 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 15 Apr 2005 Posts: 366 Location: Darlington
Dont know if this has been discussed previously but seems like a good idea, it would also stop the toppy grabbing your viewing selection as well, providing you have a spare hdmi socket
see link http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CEAQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hdcable.co.uk%2Fscart-hdmi-converter.html&ei=RAMKTe-MI8SLhQe99qSSDw&usg=AFQjCNG3uUW3CqckvNaVLlBGWec3sscKxQ

a good price too and postage is very reasonable
Phil

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the saint

TF5800[/b], F/W: MS6.4 Recommended F/W 2/6/2009 +CwFmOtTdVr
TAPs: Archive v1.0a; MyStuff 6.4; EPG2MEI v0.96; SecCache (UK) v0.4; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; MyInfo B4.0; EIT Sub v0.6;

Models TF5800 x 3, 2 x160gB Black & 1 xSilver
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jumbo
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:02 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 4731
If you have an HD TV then it'd upscale the SD picture anyway. So a waste of money.
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Laser
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:06 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 431
Nice idea, it even does the audio. It's good to see there's more and more gadgets allowing people to play around with their HDMI connections, which up until recently has either been restrictive or expensive.

However, for those like myself that have a SCART socket on the TV, I'd want to know more about whether this makes a better job of upscaling and de-interlacing (they're claiming 1080p) than the TV itself, otherwise you've just spent 40 on making the picture worse!

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TF5800 250GB Black Panther FW 5.13.65 (Patched)
TAPs: MS6.6, EPG2MEI 0.96, Extend 1.7, SecCacheUK, EIT_Sub, UKSubtitle, SDS
TV: Pioneer PDP-4280XD. AVR: Onkyo TX-NR807. Transmitter: Tacolneston
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SonicLife
Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:25 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1262
Laser wrote:
I'd want to know more about whether this makes a better job of upscaling and de-interlacing (they're claiming 1080p) than the TV itself, otherwise you've just spent 40 on making the picture worse!
They are claiming 1080p! which sounds like 1080p for the gullible to me Exclamation

The de-interlacing question is probably easy to answer, do you see any de-interlacing problems on your TV using the scart? If the answer is no this won't be able to improve it. If you are regularly annoyed then it may improve it, but I doubt it.

Unless you know your TV is poor at up-scaling I would severely doubt this will improve that aspect.

To me this looks like a product designed to fix connectivity problems, or if you wanted to send the output from the toppy a long way around the house with zero degradation.

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Jez2k
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:40 am Reply with quote
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 Posts: 18
My 5800, along with two other devices, have their SCART outputs plugged into a switch box, which then goes to the SCART input on my Panasonic HDD/DVD recorder and the SCART output from that goes to the TV (this way I can record anything to DVD). The Panasonic has an HDMI output to the TV which generates a much crisper picture across all channels, not just the HD ones. When I change from an AV/SCART channel to an HDMI channel, the difference is striking.

What I'm saying is, a HDTV won't upscale a SCART-fed image to the same quality as a HDMI (non-HD) fed image. Feed your Toppy's SCART output to another device's SCART-input which has a HDMI ouput, and then you'll notice the difference. HDMI cables cost as little as 1 including delievery for 1.8m currently on ebay, so if you have the hardware already, its worth getting one just to see.

However, this is only a quick fix. The lack of HD and catch-up is starting to grate, so I'm thinking of jumping ship sometime in the near future and go for the T1000 (that other brand, beginning with H).

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DX
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:31 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Posts: 2694
Jez2k wrote:
What I'm saying is, a HDTV won't upscale a SCART-fed image to the same quality as a HDMI (non-HD) fed image.

This may well be true of your TV but you cannot generalise.

The SCART signal has to be processed in the same way whether the electronics doing so are inside the TV or outside in an external box. What matters is the quality of the electronics involved, not where it resides.

In your case it seems the A-to-D convertor in your Panasonic recorder is of better quality than that in your TV.

So by all means try both but don't be surprised if the upscaling done in a cheap external box proves worse than the internal upscaling of an expensive TV.
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Laser
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:14 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 431
Jez2k wrote:
The Panasonic has an HDMI output to the TV which generates a much crisper picture across all channels

Crisper is not necessarily better, depending on what you mean by the word.

A good scaler can try to guess what parts of the image form edges and try to interpolate clean lines across them, while trying to emphasize shading across parts that are supposed to be separated. The effect is the illusion of more resolution than you had to begin with. It's quite tricky to do well.

Alternatively, increasing various sharpness or detail settings on the TV for the specified input can make the finer details and edges in the image appear more prominent. Many people feel this looks good, but is in fact reducing the amount of visible detail in the image. An AV enthusiast will have all sharpening features turned off.

My pioneer TV makes a decent job of upscaling RGB SCART Freeview, and when I ran it through an external scaler it looked, if anything, worse because it looked somewhat fake.

On the other hand, I tried using XBMC on a raspberry Pi recently. While 720 source upscaled to 1080 looks quite nice, scaling low resolution content looked absolutely ghastly. It's only doing a simple bicubic (or similar) scale. Both the PS3 and my blu-ray player make a much better job.

So not all scaling is equal, and not everyone will agree which is best!

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TF5800 250GB Black Panther FW 5.13.65 (Patched)
TAPs: MS6.6, EPG2MEI 0.96, Extend 1.7, SecCacheUK, EIT_Sub, UKSubtitle, SDS
TV: Pioneer PDP-4280XD. AVR: Onkyo TX-NR807. Transmitter: Tacolneston
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chris_s
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:36 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 403
EDIT:

I was getting over pedantic about terminology, then realised I had made a mistake in my argument, so have deleted my comment.

Unfortunately it has propogated into some replys.


Last edited by chris_s on Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:46 pm; edited 1 time in total

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TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: QuickJump 1.72; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; QuickBlank 0.2; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; MHEG On/Off A3; (Start Channel LCN);
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TV=Panasonic TX-32DT2 IDTV (32" CRT via CVBS-SCART), Tx: Sutton Coldfield. "My other PVR is a TiVo".
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DX
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:54 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Posts: 2694
chris_s wrote:
RGB SCART is an analogue signal of a certain quality based on its source (SD Freeview in this case) and any bandwidth limitations associated with its generation and transmission to its destination. I believe that if it is sampled at the correct rate then there is no actual 'upscaling' involved: the differences in quality may be down to the 'de-interlacing' techniques used.

The PAL analogue signal has 625 horizontal lines, of which 576 contain picture information. An HD Ready TV display has a minimum of 768 horizontal lines, Full HD 1080, and there are many other display resolutions in between.

Unless you have an old SD TV there is going to be scaling involved somewhere. It may happen more than once e.g. external box upscales 576 to 1080, then the HD Ready TV downscales 1080 to its native 768.
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chris_s
Posted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:25 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 403
EDIT:

Comment deleted.

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TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: QuickJump 1.72; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; QuickBlank 0.2; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; MHEG On/Off A3; (Start Channel LCN);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 14/3/12
,
TV=Panasonic TX-32DT2 IDTV (32" CRT via CVBS-SCART), Tx: Sutton Coldfield. "My other PVR is a TiVo".
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