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<  MyStuff  ~  Reducing "No Information" Holes in MS EPG

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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:04 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4422
This thread is a follow on from < General Toppy discussions ~ EPG for tonightt: channel4 "No Information"

It is based on information gleaned by reading many threads on this site and by experimentation.

Summary of problem
The increase in the number of Freeview channels means that the Toppy's Eit table, used to store EPG entries, is too small.
When full, new events are discarded resulting in "holes" in the EPG guides, i.e. MyStuff displays "No Information", the Native EPG just displays an empty cell.

Background
The Eit table is capable of storing 14000 events on a TF5800 (17000 on TF8510?)
Inspection of the EIT table has shown that it is storing EPG data for all channels (including HD!) whether or not these are configured on the toppy. This is contrary to the common understanding that data was not collected for channels that had been deleted.

R2-D2
R2-D2 has made several changes to how EIT data is collected/processed. These involve patches and taps to correct bugs and/or improve performance.

R2-D2 Patches (descriptions from his site, with minor changes):-

[Ec] The EIT CRC Fix patch fixes a CRC-related bug in the Toppy's EIT collection (needed when using the [Ef] patch).

[Ee] The EIT Check End patch fixes the EIT collection routine so that it notices when the duration of a programme changes.

[Ef] The EIT Dup Fix patch fixes bugs in the Toppy's EIT data collection add and delete routines, preventing duplicate
entries clogging up the space and causing other errors.

[Er] EIT Run Stat elides a couple of the firmware's fiddlings with an event running_status (required for AccurateBM TAP).

[Es] The EIT Section Cache patch radically improves EIT Section cache on mainly the later TF5800 firmwares.

[Ev] The EIT Valid Mem patch fixes a source of corruption where the EIT processor continues to use deallocated memory.
This is primarily of interest to users of TF5800 5.14.X and TF5810 5.15.X firmwares where this bug is the cause of
corrupt recording times, failure to start recordings and vanishing entries in the EPG.

[Ez] The EPG Size patch removes the constraints in the EIT collection to retain the past day's worth of data and
allow up to 10 days of future data to be collected.
It is probably a mistake to combine this with any of the EIT memory size patches.

[Pe] The Plug EIT patch prevents a memory leak related to EIT processing when the Toppy is under heavy processing strain
(e.g. from TAPs or USB transfers in non-Turbo mode).

[Pf] Present Following fixes the EIT collection to work on a static allocation of internal paths so that it
continues to work under playback (assuming the Play No CYR [Xp] is also applied). Required for AccurateBM

[Sl] The Series Link patch makes the CRID data broadcast in the UK Freeview system available as Extended Info
in the EPG data

R2D2 Taps:-
SecCache
An efficient cache to prevent unnecessary processing of EIT sections, drastically reducing the load on the Toppy during normal viewing. There is a version optimised for the UK's Freeview (based on data collected from SecCache_Logger) and a much more memory hungry, generic version that should work in any region.

EIT Sub
A simpler, faster and more robust replacement for the Toppy's complex EIT collection setup, which also enables Plug EIT [Pe] to work more effectively.

These many taps and patches make it very difficult to work out how they all hang together. This is compounded by the fact that the EIT data is changing (unlike a recording where one can keep rerunning a program to see if code changes have the desired effect).

What I think is happening
As each new EIT entry is received, it is added to the EIT table (when the toppy boots, the EIT table is empty so most events transition straight into the table).

To improve performance, the toppy uses a caching system to see if the table already contains a potentially new EIT entry (the entry is discarded if it already exists). Reading though the threads on the site; it looks as though caching exists in the recommended firmwares that we use i.e. removing R2-D2's caching patches/taps is unlikely to help because this would reinstate the buggy mechanism provided by Topfield.

The majority of the EIT table is built up very quickly (2 to 3 minutes) after the toppy boots. When the table is full, most new EIT data is discarded (unless it is Now & Next and/or a change to an existing entry)
Event changes do occur during the day but these are "few" i.e. if a "hole" appears in the EPG, it is unlikely to be filled (possibly because of the caching mechanism?)

Selecting the channel that has a "hole" in the EPG does not necessarily result in that hole being filled (shame).

There is a flurry of activity around midnight as stations broadcast new EIT data for the newly added day (one week into the future); also EPG2MEI deletes entries that are over 24 hours old.

Ideal Solution
The ideal solution would be for entries to be discarded if they relate to non-existent channels. I'm guessing that the appropriate place for this would be Eit_Sub (and/or possibly SecCache) but, without the source code of these taps, almost impossible to implement. It might be possible to patch these taps but again, without knowing exactly how they work, and the need to nobble them before they really start running, this would be extremely difficult and not worth the effort.

Alternative Solution
I have experimented with a tap that prunes all Eit entries for non-existent channels. This runs every time EPG2MEI tells MyStuff that the EPG file has changed (or every 15 minutes if no message received). Pruning the table makes room for new entries but doesn't guarantee that "holes" will be filled (down to the caching mechanisms?)

My test toppy has 51 Tv and 26 Radio stations:
Code:
10:57:14 Boot
11:00:13 PruneEPG: Initial events= 8963, pruned= 3031, kept= 5932, Ticks=2500
11:07:01 PruneEPG: Initial events=14000, pruned= 4087, kept= 9913, Ticks=6476
11:19:44 PruneEPG: Initial events=13261, pruned= 1790, kept=11471, Ticks=2707
11:34:35 PruneEPG: Initial events=11736, pruned=  180, kept=11556, Ticks=  93
11:48:05 PruneEPG: Initial events=11560, pruned=    4, kept=11556, Ticks=   2


EPG2MEI
EPG2MEI collects data from the EIT table and merges the data with that from a previous run (if it exists).
Having created a merged file (EPG.mei), EPG2MEI sends a broadcast message to say that the file has been modified. This can be detected by other taps e.g. MyStuff, which can then process the new data.

Actually, it is a little bit more complex in that EPG2MEI also sends a few other broadcasts (like Now and Next events).

The merging of new data with old data means that the likelyhood of "holes" in the EPG are reduced; if any exist in the current data, they are likely to be filled in with information from a prior run (and not necessarily the previous run).
As the data is stored on disk, this means that "holes" may be filled in using data collected in a previous boot of the toppy.

It also appears that EPG2MEI manipulates the EIT buffer data in that it deletes "old" (over 24 hours?) entries.

MyStuff
On receipt of the broadcast message from EPG2MEI, this processes the EPG.mei file (or a smaller EPG diff.mei).
MyStuff doesn't directly manipulate the EIT buffers i.e. it only uses the information that it gets from the data file.

Recommendation
1) Users of MyStuff should put the toppy into standby each night (this minimises memory leakage problems and also empties the EIT table enabling it to receive new events)

2) An EPG scan timer should be set to wake the toppy up in the early part of the morning i.e. before normal viewing.
2a) The EPG scan should be on a main channel e.g. BBC1
2b) The EPG scan needs to be at least 15 minutes long (I was using 10 minutes; when booting my test toppy, it takes 7 to 9 minutes before EPG2MEI processes the "settled" eit data. Using a 10 minute scan could result in the toppy shutting down before EPG2MEI has fully processed the new EPG.mei file)
2c) Ideally, the toppy should shut down after the scan (this means that there will be another opportunity to collect EPG data when it is booted for normal viewing later in the day).

3) While reducing the number of channels does not help collection of EIT data, it does improve general performance as it reduces the work performed by EPG2MEI in generating the EPG.mei file.
For MyStuff, deleting channels reduces the memory used to cache the EPG data and the work involved in scheduling timers.

Suggested MyStuff options (adapt to suit your own requirements)
Y1: PowerOff Handler=Internal
Y2: Enable automatic PowerOff=Yes
Y3: Auto PowerOff Time=00:30
Y4: PowerOff after EPG Scan Timer=Yes

T5: EPG Scan Duration=15 mins
T6: Channel for EPG Scan=BBC ONE West
T7: EPG Scan Time=07:00

Hopefully, following these suggested settings will minimise problems with "holes" appearing in the MyStuff EPG (if not, I will release my PruneEPG tap).

Possible future enhancement to MyStuff?
MyStuff could perhaps provide options to allow a second shutdown/wake up for EPG scan timer (and ideally using a
different channel to scan for EPG information). This would allow the toppy to be shutdown twice overnight with EPG
data being formed from the data on two different muxes (or going overboard, 6 potential shutdowns, one for each mux?)

Geoff


Last edited by Geoff Bacon on Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:53 pm; edited 3 times in total

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
Sig generated by EMJB's MyInfo.tap on 29/12/18
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ryclark
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:30 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 1604 Location: Shropshire
Excellent detective work Geoff. let's hope it solves most of the EPG collection problems that many have been having.

_________________
TF5800t, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Fm
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; MyInfo B5.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; MHEG On/Off A3; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; TSSaver v0.5;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 13/10/14
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4422
Thanks for that.

(I've changed the title of this thread as well)

Geoff

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
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Bizman
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 5:59 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 1707
My thoughts on this:

1. it's not just the MyStuff EPG that has 'holes', the native Toppy EPG does too

2. Currently there are over 10 applications for channel licenses that have been accepted, but not yet added to the Freeview line-up.

3. Has any attempt been made to contact R2-D2 to see if the source code can be made available as required for any of the patches.

4. Is it possible to increase the buffer size?

5. I have a spare 5810 gathering dust that I would be happy to donate for test purposes

[Edit: item 2 clarified].


Last edited by Bizman on Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:59 am; edited 1 time in total

_________________
TF5810, F/W: 5.15.09T 4/9/2009 -FmTe+EzHsVb
TAPs: EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; MHEG On/Off A3; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; PruneEPG 1.0; EPG2MEI v0.96; QuickJump 1.72; Extend v1.7; (fsSave 1.1);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 3/8/17

Other TAPs : FsCheck, Channel Organiser. PSU Caps 7/2/2011 Tx: Mendip. TV: Samsung (32"), NSLU2, STB: Labgear FV300. PC Acer Aspire One with Win7 Starter
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mstombs
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:18 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 31 Dec 2006 Posts: 938
Great Stuff Geoff,

I agree with everything you have posted - and I am really envious of your tap development skills! Do you have any idea how many EIT entries are being broadcast per channel per day? It seems that your test setup would need more than 14000 even for the reduced No of channels?

Would purging the whole table and allowing it to refill be better than power-cycling? i.e. if you have a problem run a on-off tap, and have a statistical change of filling gaps next shuffle?

Do all channels broadcast all the same EIT data, I wonder if BBC are being over-zealous in sending everything, maybe old SDN mux, for example wouldn't bother with CBeebies HD? Probably better answered by someone with PC and DVB card!

@Bizman re item 4. I have seen a post by R2-D2 stating that the buffer size of 14000 is effectively hardcoded in many places - presumably it was a source-code #define that the compiler has in-line optimized. Therefore it is not likely to be ever changed.
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Bizman
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:41 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 1707
mstombs wrote:
re item 4. I have seen a post by R2-D2 stating that the buffer size of 14000 is effectively hardcoded in many places - presumably it was a source-code #define that the compiler has in-line optimized. Therefore it is not likely to be ever changed.
I suspected as much, otherwise someone would probably have done it by now, but I can dream...

_________________
TF5810, F/W: 5.15.09T 4/9/2009 -FmTe+EzHsVb
TAPs: EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; MHEG On/Off A3; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; PruneEPG 1.0; EPG2MEI v0.96; QuickJump 1.72; Extend v1.7; (fsSave 1.1);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 3/8/17

Other TAPs : FsCheck, Channel Organiser. PSU Caps 7/2/2011 Tx: Mendip. TV: Samsung (32"), NSLU2, STB: Labgear FV300. PC Acer Aspire One with Win7 Starter
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DX
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:53 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Posts: 2695
mstombs wrote:
Do all channels broadcast all the same EIT data, I wonder if BBC are being over-zealous in sending everything, maybe old SDN mux, for example wouldn't bother with CBeebies HD? Probably better answered by someone with PC and DVB card!

All mux broadcast all the EIT data. Each channel sends its data to a central collator which produces a master set of EIT data for each transmitter and this is then added to the various mux feeds.

Many years ago the SDN mux did restrict the number of days of EIT data it transmitted (to 3 days ISTR) but it didn't miss out channels. That isn't the case now AFAIK. Missing out channels would amongst other things break accurate recording - in the example given if a CBeebies HD recording started early the pvr wouldn't know if you happened to be watching the SDN mux at the time. The Freeview+ spec relies on all mux carrying EIT data for all channels.

While the EIT data will all arrive eventually regardless of the mux the update rate does vary per channel. Preference is given to channels on the current mux so some advantage may be gained by multiple wake timers starting on different channels. e.g. Wake on BBC1 to preferentially populate the BBC channels then go to standby to clear the tables. Wake on ITV1 to populate ITV+C4+C5 then go to standby again. Repeat for the other 3 mux.

I don't know whether this is worth doing in practice but it could be worth a look.
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ccs
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 10:52 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2588
I'm sure my logic will be off the mark here, but suppose the 14000 entry buffer is trying to accommodate 28000 entries ie half get lost.

So, on average, the first reboot from scratch allows epg2mei to catch 50%, the second another 25% etc

The sequence is 50, 25, 12, 6, 3, 1 giving a 97% populated epg after 6 reboots.

So putting into standby once a day should, after 6 days, get the epg pretty full, and subsequent reboots won't make much difference.

The only improvement I can see is rebooting to a different mux each day.

edit: I suppose each day, 1/7 of the current epg will be lost, so my sums are already off the mark.

_________________
TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -FmXl+CtEzIScVdZ
TAPs: EIT Sub v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; Extend v1.7; MyStuff 6.6;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 20/10/14
ccsx
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Sun Mar 01, 2015 11:49 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4422
@Bizman

1) yes the native Toppy EPG has holes in it but I suspect what ever one does it always will (when a bottle is full, you can't pour any more into it)

[edit]I also posted this in a MyStuff Thread![/edit]

3) I haven't contacted R2-D2. Based on previous requests for the EPG2MEI code, I doubt that this would be successful (R2-D2 used a special compiler that handle the gp register when calling routines; he lost this when his disk was corrupted. He also no longer owns a toppy)

I also have no interest in trying to write a patch although someone else might (EMJB has no interest). As I understand it, this would require a compiler that could handle gp addressing.

4) As mstombs has already posted, it sounds as though the 14000 event limit is hard coded in several places so can't be increased.

@mstombs
I have considered (and played around with) purging the whole eit table - but this means that the native EPG is devoid of any entries while the table is rebuilt. This raises issues about what time of day one tries to rebuild the EPG.
Also completely purging the complete eit table doesn't address Bizman's concerns that there are holes in the native EPG; it just moves them around.
Another issue is that pruning an entry may not destroy the cached information for that entry i.e. the multitude of patches/taps may still think the entry is still in the eit table.

@DX
"e.g. Wake on BBC1 to preferentially populate the BBC channels then go to standby to clear the tables. Wake on ITV1 to populate ITV+C4+C5 then go to standby again"
This is what I was alluding to when I said this could possibly be a future enhancement to MyStuff.
It does require extra effort by Bobd and is probably not necessary at the moment.
It also doesn't address the issue of holes in the native EPG.

@ccs
My guess is that, based on what I have seen as being purged, there are currently getting on for about 17000 EPG entries - I don't have a 5810 so can't confirm whether or not that fills up.
Making the toppy restart twice a day (as per my recommendation) is probably sufficient to allow MyStuff/EPG2MEI users to function without issue even though the in memory EPG is incomplete.
Again this doesn't address holes in the native EPG.

The native EPG
This is always going to have holes in it although these might be minimised by using my PurgeEPG tap (should I release it). Those few diehards (no names) that have resisted using MyStuff might like to review their decision!

Geoff

_________________
TopManager program
TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
Sig generated by EMJB's MyInfo.tap on 29/12/18
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DX
Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:21 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Posts: 2695
Geoff Bacon wrote:
3) I haven't contacted R2-D2. Based on previous requests for the EPG2MEI code, I doubt that this would be successful (R2-D2 used a special compiler that handle the gp register when calling routines; he lost this when his disk was corrupted. He also no longer owns a toppy)

I remember R2-D2 was reluctant to open-source his work in the past but maybe if he has moved on from the Toppy he might reconsider. The need for s special compiler presents difficulties when modifying and rebuilding but that isn't the only advantage of open-source software. Knowing exactly how it operates rather than having to guess can also prove to be of benefit.

That is of course assuming he still has the sources. I'd be hard pressed to lay my hands on the sources for taps I did back in the day.
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Bizman
Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:47 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 1707
Geoff Bacon wrote:
Inspection of the EIT table has shown that it is storing EPG data for all channels (including HD!) whether or not these are configured on the toppy. This is contrary to the common understanding that data was not collected for channels that had been deleted.
This being so, the situation can only get worse as more channels come on line. Currently the local radio channels 719-722 are being rolled out, some transmitters using all four. With a dozen more channel licenses already granted, (some of which may come to nothing) and COM 7 & 8 being added, I fear the Toppy may become a struggle to use.

_________________
TF5810, F/W: 5.15.09T 4/9/2009 -FmTe+EzHsVb
TAPs: EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; MHEG On/Off A3; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; PruneEPG 1.0; EPG2MEI v0.96; QuickJump 1.72; Extend v1.7; (fsSave 1.1);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 3/8/17

Other TAPs : FsCheck, Channel Organiser. PSU Caps 7/2/2011 Tx: Mendip. TV: Samsung (32"), NSLU2, STB: Labgear FV300. PC Acer Aspire One with Win7 Starter
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mstombs
Posted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:57 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 31 Dec 2006 Posts: 938
@Bizman - The good news is that MyStuff can work without native epg collection or epg2mei - if you have a connected device to run as2mei, but what you lose is permanently is short term schedule changes - but looks like we have that already! There is already a patch to tap to disable the internal EIT collection - which may help general Toppy responsiveness!

If someone could patch the EIT collection mechanism to drop svc id above 0xA000 - that would also future block com8 according to

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/87371/UKDTT_DVBID_Allocation_v1_0.pdf

but it seems that wouldn't be enough to unfill the buffer!
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EMJB
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:49 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 08 Jul 2005 Posts: 3639 Location: Maldon Essex
mstombs wrote:
@Bizman - The good news is that MyStuff can work without native epg collection or epg2mei - if you have a connected device to run as2mei, but what you lose is permanently is short term schedule changes - but looks like we have that already!
That is what I have been doing for the last 6 months or more, with the bonus that you can get series link data for 2 weeks, not just one!

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Bizman
Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:56 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2010 Posts: 1707
mstombs wrote:
@Bizman - The good news is that MyStuff can work without native epg collection or epg2mei - if you have a connected device to run as2mei, but what you lose is permanently is short term schedule changes - but looks like we have that already! ...!
I am going to resurrect a project I started a while back that was abandoned due to ill health. I have a NSLU2 but need to set up a WAP (Wireless Access Point) and am still waiting for my ISP to change. (The transition has been put on hold for the third time!)

_________________
TF5810, F/W: 5.15.09T 4/9/2009 -FmTe+EzHsVb
TAPs: EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; MHEG On/Off A3; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; PruneEPG 1.0; EPG2MEI v0.96; QuickJump 1.72; Extend v1.7; (fsSave 1.1);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 3/8/17

Other TAPs : FsCheck, Channel Organiser. PSU Caps 7/2/2011 Tx: Mendip. TV: Samsung (32"), NSLU2, STB: Labgear FV300. PC Acer Aspire One with Win7 Starter
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ccs
Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:58 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2588
Is there any "attribute" that a channel might have which means that any eit data for that channel is already automatically discarded/ignored??

So rather than deleting the channel, add the "attribute", maybe at every reboot.

_________________
TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -FmXl+CtEzIScVdZ
TAPs: EIT Sub v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; Extend v1.7; MyStuff 6.6;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 20/10/14
ccsx
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