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ryclark
Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:02 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 1604 Location: Shropshire
Having downloaded and opened one of the files in TSReader there appear to be two entries for BBC One in the EIT PID and SDT PID tables, one from BBC South and one from BBC South East.

EIT PID

Code:
Channel 1/4163
Service Name: BBC ONE
Provider Name:
Transport Stream ID: 4163 (0x1043) 498.0 MHz

---------------------------------------------
Starts: 27/03/2012 18:30:00
Length: 00:30:00
EIT Source: actual TS, event schedule
Name: South Today
The latest news, sport, weather and features from the South of England. [S]
Description Source: DVB Short Event
Descriptor: Component Descriptor
 Component:  eng (video, 16:9 aspect ratio without pan vectors, 25 Hz)

Descriptor: Component Descriptor
 Component:  eng (audio, stereo (2 channel))

Descriptor: Component Descriptor
 Component:  eng (DVB subtitles (normal) with no monitor aspect ratio criticality)

Descriptor: Content Descriptor
 Content: news/current affairs (general) (user 0x0/0x0)

Descriptor: Private Data Specifier Descriptor
 Private Data Specifier: Independent Television Commission

Descriptor: Content Identifier Descriptor
 c8 07 2f 4b 43 4a 51 4e 5a                       ../KCJQNZ       


Code:
Channel 826/4172
Service Name: BBC ONE
Provider Name:
Transport Stream ID: 4172 (0x104c) 674.0 MHz

---------------------------------------------
Starts: 27/03/2012 18:30:00
Length: 00:30:00
EIT Source: other TS, event schedule
Name: South East Today
The latest news, sport, weather and features from the South East of England. [S]
Description Source: DVB Short Event
Descriptor: Component Descriptor
 Component:  eng (video, 16:9 aspect ratio without pan vectors, 25 Hz)

Descriptor: Component Descriptor
 Component:  eng (audio, stereo (2 channel))

Descriptor: Component Descriptor
 Component:  eng (DVB subtitles (normal) with no monitor aspect ratio criticality)

Descriptor: Content Descriptor
 Content: news/current affairs (general) (user 0x0/0x0)

Descriptor: Private Data Specifier Descriptor
 Private Data Specifier: Independent Television Commission

Descriptor: Content Identifier Descriptor
 c8 07 2f 4b 43 4a 51 4f 48                       ../KCJQOH       


SDT PID

Code:
Channel 1/4163
On Table_ID: 0x42 (current mux)
Service Name: BBC ONE
Provider Name:
Transport Stream ID: 4163 (0x1043) 498.0 MHz

Descriptor: Default Authority Descriptor
 66 70 2e 62 62 63 2e 63 6f 2e 75 6b              fp.bbc.co.uk   


Code:
Channel 826/4172
On Table_ID: 0x46 (another mux)
Service Name: BBC ONE
Provider Name:
Transport Stream ID: 4172 (0x104c) 674.0 MHz

Descriptor: Default Authority Descriptor
 66 70 2e 62 62 63 2e 63 6f 2e 75 6b              fp.bbc.co.uk


So when viewing the EPG data there are two versions of BBC1, which presumably pushes BBC2 down the list causing it to record the other BBC1 instead of 2.

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Fortune_17
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:57 am Reply with quote
Regular contributor Joined: 08 Mar 2012 Posts: 36
R2-D2 wrote:
Could somebody do the data gathering previously suggested? The best thing would be to do the recording on an off-air channel on an affected mux (currently CBeebies), and aim for the 5-10 mins across a busy programme transition point with lots of potential for regional variation (e.g. 10.25pm).


I've added a recording of Cbeebies at 22:25 hours to the data at the end of the link already provided

Many Thanks

Rob

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albertd
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 578
ryclark wrote:
Having downloaded and opened one of the files in TSReader there appear to be two entries for BBC One in the EIT PID and SDT PID tables, one from BBC South and one from BBC South East.
It seems to be suggesting Rowridge on Channel 24 and some other transmitter (carrying BBC SE) on Channel 46. I have searched my lists, and I cannot see any BBC SE transmitters on that channel.

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ccs
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:37 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2614
Patcham and Brading had some changes to CH46 on 21st march.

There may be more

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albertd
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:14 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 578
ccs wrote:
Patcham and Brading had some changes to CH46 on 21st march.
Neither is supposed to have BBC A on Ch 46. Patcham is BBC B and Brading is D3&4. Also Brading would be BBC South. Weird.

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ccs
Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:20 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2614
albertd wrote:
ccs wrote:
Patcham and Brading had some changes to CH46 on 21st march.
Neither is supposed to have BBC A on Ch 46. Patcham is BBC B and Brading is D3&4. Also Brading would be BBC South. Weird.
But doesn't each mux transmit epg data for all channels?

How the OP is picking up CH46 if the last MyInfo log is ok is beyond me.

ryclark wrote:
Channel 826/4172
Service Name: BBC ONE
Provider Name:
Transport Stream ID: 4172 (0x104c) 674.0 MHz
Could Channel 826 be a clue?
Is it in a range the toppy excludes in some circumstances?
I thought duplicates ended up in the 800's - maybe they are not being "completely" deleted?

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ccs
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:18 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2614
Fortune_17 wrote:
R2-D2 wrote:
Could somebody do the data gathering previously suggested? The best thing would be to do the recording on an off-air channel on an affected mux (currently CBeebies), and aim for the 5-10 mins across a busy programme transition point with lots of potential for regional variation (e.g. 10.25pm).


I've added a recording of Cbeebies at 22:25 hours to the data at the end of the link already provided

Many Thanks

Rob
I've had a look at the Cbeebies link and it's showing up the same problems detailed in ryclark's post.

eg you're picking up frequency 674.....

Code:
Network Name: South..
Network ID: 12433 (0x3091)
Transport Stream ID: 4172 (0x104c)
Original Network ID: 9018 (0x233a) Version: 23
Descriptor: Network Name Descriptor
Descriptor: User Private Descriptor: 0x7f
 0a 47 42 52 65 6e 67 47 45 6e 67 6c 61 6e 64 01  .GBRengGEngland.
 85 53 6f 75 74 68 01 0f 8a 53 6f 75 74 68 20 45  .South...South E
 61 73 74 01 17                                   ast..           
Descriptor: User Private Descriptor: 0x7f
 09 47 42 52 fa 01 0f fa 01 17                    .GBR......     
Descriptor: Linkage Descriptor
 Transport Stream ID: 4163 (0x1043) 498.0 MHz
 Original Network ID: 9018 (0x233a)
 Service ID: 4416
 Linkage Type: System Software Update Service
Descriptor: Linkage Descriptor
 Transport Stream ID: 4172 (0x104c) 674.0 MHz
 Original Network ID: 9018 (0x233a)
 Service ID: 4416
 Linkage Type: System Software Update Service
Descriptor: Linkage Descriptor
 Transport Stream ID: 16515 (0x4083)
 Original Network ID: 9018 (0x233a)
 Service ID: 17472
 Linkage Type: System Software Update Service
Descriptor: User Private Descriptor: 0x7f
 07 0c 84 20 08 01 da c0 00 00 00 06 00 00 18 02  ... ............
 10 43 23 3a 09 01 da c0 11 00 00 00 30 00 18 02  .C#:........0...
 10 43 23 3a 0c 81 20 0a 01 da c7 00 00 00 06 00  .C#:.. .........
 00 18 02 10 43 23 3a 0b 01 da c7 11 00 00 05 00  ....C#:.........
 00 18 02 10 43 23 3a 0c 82 10 0c 01 da c7 00 00  ....C#:.........
 00 06 00 00 18 02 10 43 23 3a 0c 83 20 0d 01 da  .......C#:.. ...
 c7 00 00 00 06 00 00 18 02 10 4c 23 3a 0e 01 da  ..........L#:...
 c7 11 00 00 05 00 00 18 02 10 4c 23 3a           ..........L#:   
Descriptor: User Private Descriptor: 0x7f
 08 02 65 6e 67 49 66 20 79 6f 75 20 66 69 6e 64  ..engIf you find
 20 79 6f 75 20 68 61 76 65 20 6c 6f 73 74 20 79   you have lost y
 6f 75 72 20 63 68 61 6e 6e 65 6c 73 20 61 74 20  our channels at
 73 77 69 74 63 68 6f 76 65 72 20 70 6c 65 61 73  switchover pleas
 65 20 20 72 65 2d 74 75 6e 65 20 79 6f 75 72 20  e  re-tune your
 46 72 65 65 76 69 65 77 20 54 56 20 6f 72 20 62  Freeview TV or b
 6f 78 20 74 6f 20 67 65 74 20 74 68 65 6d 20 62  ox to get them b
 61 63 6b 2e                                      ack.           
DVB-T Frequency 674.000 MHz
Bandwidth: 8 MHz Constellation: 64-QAM
Hierarchy: non-hierarchical, native interleaver Guard Interval 1/32
Code Rate: 2/3
Current Network: True
Descriptor: Service List Descriptor
 Service: 4172 (BBC ONE) digital television service
 Service: 4287 (BBC TWO) digital television service
 Service: 4288 (BBC THREE) digital television service
 Service: 4544 (BBC FOUR) digital television service
 Service: 4608 (CBBC Channel) digital television service
 Service: 4672 (CBeebies) digital television service
 Service: 4352 (BBC NEWS) digital television service
 Service: 4736 (BBC Parliament) digital television service
 Service: 4416 (BBC Red Button) digital television service
 Service: 7168 (301) digital television service
 Service: 6720 (BBC Radio 1) digital radio sound service
 Service: 5888 (BBC R1X) digital radio sound service
 Service: 6784 (BBC Radio 2) digital radio sound service
 Service: 6848 (BBC Radio 3) digital radio sound service
 Service: 6912 (BBC Radio 4) digital radio sound service
 Service: 5632 (BBC R5L) digital radio sound service
 Service: 5696 (BBC R5SX) digital radio sound service
 Service: 5760 (BBC 6 Music) digital radio sound service
 Service: 5824 (BBC Radio 4 Ex) digital radio sound service
 Service: 5952 (BBC Asian Net.) digital radio sound service
 Service: 6016 (BBC World Sv.) digital radio sound service
Descriptor: User Private Descriptor: 0x7f
 09 47 42 52 fa 01 17                             .GBR...         
Descriptor: Private Data Specifier Descriptor
 Private Data Specifier: Independent Television Commission
Descriptor: User Private Descriptor: 0x83
 Logical channel 1 = MPEG service 4172 (BBC ONE)
 Logical channel 7 = MPEG service 4288 (BBC THREE)
 Logical channel 71 = MPEG service 4672 (CBeebies)
 Logical channel 703 = MPEG service 6848 (BBC Radio 3)
 Logical channel 707 = MPEG service 5760 (BBC 6 Music)
 Logical channel 105 = MPEG service 4416 (BBC Red Button)
 Logical channel 9 = MPEG service 4544 (BBC FOUR)
 Logical channel 81 = MPEG service 4736 (BBC Parliament)
 Logical channel 705 = MPEG service 5632 (BBC R5L)
 Logical channel 701 = MPEG service 5888 (BBC R1X)
 Logical channel 301 = MPEG service 7168 (301)
 Logical channel 709 = MPEG service 5952 (BBC Asian Net.)
 Logical channel 2 = MPEG service 4287 (BBC TWO)
 Logical channel 70 = MPEG service 4608 (CBBC Channel)
 Logical channel 710 = MPEG service 6016 (BBC World Sv.)
 Logical channel 702 = MPEG service 6784 (BBC Radio 2)
 Logical channel 706 = MPEG service 5696 (BBC R5SX)
 Logical channel 80 = MPEG service 4352 (BBC NEWS)
 Logical channel 704 = MPEG service 6912 (BBC Radio 4)
 Logical channel 708 = MPEG service 5824 (BBC Radio 4 Ex)
 Logical channel 700 = MPEG service 6720 (BBC Radio 1)



TSReader thinks you're actually tuned into 8 frequencies 482.2, 498.0, 506.0, 522.0, 545.8, 570.2, 602.0 and 674.0MHz.

So 482.2, 506.0 and 674.0 shouldn't be being picked up.

edit: Looking at it a bit more carefully, could this be an information stream, originating on 647.0MHz, but broadcast on 498.0MHz ??

View EPG shows two BBC One channels.


Last edited by ccs on Sat Mar 31, 2012 2:56 pm; edited 5 times in total

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Fortune_17
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:00 pm Reply with quote
Regular contributor Joined: 08 Mar 2012 Posts: 36
@R2D2
Many thanks for your post.

Could you clarify whether the data indicates that i am picking up unexpected program transmissions or that the EPG data contains extraneous data?

I haven't completed a service scan in the last few days, but the last one never detected any transmissions on frequencies 482.2, 506.0 or 674.0.

Many Thanks

Rob

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ccs
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 1:14 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2614
Fortune_17 wrote:
@R2D2
Many thanks for your post.
You've made my day - confusing me with R2-D2 Cool

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Fortune_17
Posted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:10 pm Reply with quote
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@ccs

Whoops sorry, was mentally expecting a reply from R2d2 as he initiated the data request...

Rob

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R2-D2
Posted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:40 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
From the data in the recordings, it's not just BBC One that is duplicated, it's the whole BBC mux. The EIT data does appear to be properly labelled with distinct Transport Stream IDs, but (and this may be the clincher) all the stations apart from BBC One have the same Service ID. From memory, the Topfield implementation of Freeview+ Series Links and Accurate Recording took a little shortcut in only using the Service ID to identify a channel (rather than the full Network/TS/Service combination).

I imagine this might settle down after DSO is completed -- I can't see any valid reason for duplication apart from aiding slow users make the transition to the new setup.

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juwlz
Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 8:59 am Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 12 Aug 2005 Posts: 10802 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire (Hannington transmitter)
In other words, the reason we're only seeing this on 5810s is because they have no choice but to run Freeview+ firmware; 5800s can run non-Freeview+ firmware (i.e. 5.13.65T), but if they were running 5.14.xx, they'd get the same problem?

Is the duplication because the BBC mux (channel 24) is being transmitted in both horizontal and vertical polarity? And if so, what's the situation with the data being transmitted from the mux on channel 27 (LCNs 3,4,5,6, etc.)? Do they all have unique Transport Stream IDs and therefore aren't affected?

It seems illogical to me though that the manifestation of the problem is that timers get set for BBC1 instead of / as well as the required channel if BBC1 is the only one that actually has a unique Service ID. It would seem more logical that they'd all be set for BBC2 or one of the other LCNs with the same Service ID as the one requested.

Julie

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R2-D2
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:19 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
juwlz wrote:
if they were running 5.14.xx, they'd get the same problem?

I'd have thought so. I reckon it messes up the Topfield implementation of Accurate Recording. That would mean that TAP-set timers ought to be fine, though -- is that the case?

Quote:
Is the duplication because the BBC mux (channel 24) is being transmitted in both horizontal and vertical polarity?

Well, I suppose it could be, if that's the only mux sent that way. It would be understandable if they sent the whole collection of EIT data on all [UHF] channels, if not ideal. And that might mean it wouldn't go away after the last stage of DSO (or is the polarity thing a temporary measure?).

Quote:
And if so, what's the situation with the data being transmitted from the mux on channel 27 (LCNs 3,4,5,6, etc.)?

That looks fine to me, which is a little confusing.

Quote:
It seems illogical to me though that the manifestation of the problem is that timers get set for BBC1 instead of / as well as the required channel if BBC1 is the only one that actually has a unique Service ID.

Yes, that's also odd. There could easily be more to this than just the dup BBC mux.

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juwlz
Posted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:23 pm Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 12 Aug 2005 Posts: 10802 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire (Hannington transmitter)
R2-D2 wrote:
juwlz wrote:
if they were running 5.14.xx, they'd get the same problem?
I'd have thought so. I reckon it messes up the Topfield implementation of Accurate Recording. That would mean that TAP-set timers ought to be fine, though -- is that the case?
Nobody who's seen it is running any TAPs. Of course, that could be conincidence, as anybody running MyStuff would be on 3.13.65T anyway. There is somebody on 5.14.09T that has the same problem though: Spurious BBC1 recordings when using series link
Quote:
Quote:
Is the duplication because the BBC mux (channel 24) is being transmitted in both horizontal and vertical polarity?

Well, I suppose it could be, if that's the only mux sent that way. It would be understandable if they sent the whole collection of EIT data on all [UHF] channels, if not ideal. And that might mean it wouldn't go away after the last stage of DSO (or is the polarity thing a temporary measure?).
No, I think the dual polarity thing is permanent, and expanding on 18th April.
Quote:
Quote:
And if so, what's the situation with the data being transmitted from the mux on channel 27 (LCNs 3,4,5,6, etc.)?
That looks fine to me, which is a little confusing.
Quote:
Quote:
It seems illogical to me though that the manifestation of the problem is that timers get set for BBC1 instead of / as well as the required channel if BBC1 is the only one that actually has a unique Service ID.
Yes, that's also odd. There could easily be more to this than just the dup BBC mux.
Curiouser and curiouser.

Julie


Last edited by juwlz on Wed Jan 28, 2015 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Fortune_17
Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2012 12:27 pm Reply with quote
Regular contributor Joined: 08 Mar 2012 Posts: 36
I'm still taking hope from the fact that Mux D3+4 on C27 (ITV etc) is in its final configuration, broadcasting on both polarisations and working perfectly on the 5810.

This would seem to show that there's no intrinsic problem with the twin polarisation broadcasts from Rowridge.

@R2D2
Did you note any info in the test recordings concerning the transmissions on 482.2, 674.0 and 506.0 reported by CCS? Still wondering what the nature of these are.
Are these the duplications you referred to?
I don't have any duplicates popping up on the 5810 program list on these frequencies, so I'm still not clear what the source is.

Many Thanks

Rob

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