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chris_s
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:51 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 403
MarkPax wrote:
@ Chris:- Why don't you use MyStuff?
Why don?t I use MyStuff?

I was a long term user, and fan, of a TiVo (which I might add, is still working and used every day), then bought a 5810 the very instant that it was released. I did the usual whinging on this forum about all of its initial bugs and foibles, but as R2-D2 and the rest sorted most of the bugs I found that I could live with the few things that I didn?t like.

As an aside, since I have committed the cardinal sin of mentioning that I am reasonably happy with a 5810, I should just add that the HDD does get a bit too warm (max. ever of 65C), the PSU voltages were recently measured, under full load, and were near perfect, and that since January 2009 I have recorded 2880 programs, 343 (444GB) of which are still on the HDD: a buffer level of about 300 is what I generally maintain.

I freely admit that if I recorded a different mix of programs across a different mix of channels the outcome may be very different, but I find Freeview+ works for the vast majority of the time.

I think that my reticence to use MyStuff is partly down to fear of change, but mainly down to my perception of how it would perform and the management of risk (of missing a recording). I think that if I had to / wanted to adopt a ?Set and Forget? strategy then MyStuff would be the path that I would follow, however, I am fortunate to have the time, and unfortunate to have the slight OCD tendency that allows/makes me check the schedules every day (or many days in advance if going away).

The majority of my recordings are from the main 5 channels (channel *5* being handled by the TiVo) plus a few BBC4, +1s, etc., and they tend to be very concentrated in the 21:00 ? 00:00 slot: many involving contiguous timeslots, on the same, or different channels/muxs.

My risk comparison is as follows:-

If one of the tuners needs to change Mux at a contiguous timeslot point and the previous program overruns by more than the next program starts late then I may well miss part of one of the programs, but for the vast majority of the time, with my recording mix, this doesn?t happen.

My perception of MyStuff is that, in the above scenario, it would take one of the risks away by automatically rescheduling one of the recordings: my problem is that I don?t want it to remove that risk for me because I find that there is a second risk of the rescheduled repeat being bumped for some reason, and since I tend to be a true PVR user, i.e. watch what I want when I want, I may not realise that a rescheduled recording had failed until weeks or months later.

I believe that the MyStuff searches and filing system are precisely what I want from a PVR, but I also believe that its initial purpose is also its Achilles heel. It was developed before Freeview+ so it very cleverly did everything that a discerning PVR owner would want it to, in the absence of Freeview+. When Freeview+ arrived, it employed the CRID data to further improve searches and embraced (via patches and companion TAPs) ?accurate recording? as best it could.

Although I had a half-baked idea, and raised it in a previous thread, I believe that the TAP API precludes a facility that would, for me, make MyStuff ideal, and that is to let (as an option) the very powerful search features set recordings effectively from the native EPG, and therefore be subject to the ?accurate recording? markers (no pre/post padding, no merged recordings, just let the native machine do its thing, and accept the risk): unfortunately for me this is not going to happen.

My perception could, of course, be wrong: I may have to buy one of these cheap 5800s and run MyStuff in parallel.

Chris.

_________________
TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: QuickJump 1.72; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; QuickBlank 0.2; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; MHEG On/Off A3; (Start Channel LCN);
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TV=Panasonic TX-32DT2 IDTV (32" CRT via CVBS-SCART), Tx: Sutton Coldfield. "My other PVR is a TiVo".
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MarkPax
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 12:47 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Posts: 520
Hi Chris, interesting post & I share some of the same views

But I think your risk perception might be the wrong way round???? Here's how I see it.

Any PVR will sometimes come up against the situation where it's being asked to record more programmes than it has tuners (eg when it has only one tuner free, programme A due to end at 21:00 overruns to 21:02 and programme B is due to start at 21:00). The question is, what does it do about it? Only two choices
1 - postpone recording B to a graveyard Alternate (Freeview+)
2 - end recording A at the scheduled time, lose the last 2 minutes, and start recording B (Timer based)

Older timer based boxes like my Thomson DHD4000 and (I guess) your TiVo adopted strategy 1.

Newer Freeview+ boxes are supposed to use strategy 2. They use the EIT (Now & Next) data to spot the overrun in real time. Indeed my Sagemcom Freeview+ PVR does this, and it's a pain in the butt because you want to watch the programme the next day, but find out it's been rescheduled to several days in the future. Sometimes as you say you can get a domino effect where you end up missing the programme. Most of the time I would rather sacrifice the 2 minutes.

I'm a bit confused about which strategy you prefer:- you mention you prefer strategy 2, but you then talk about using the Freeview+ features which are strategy 1.

MyStuff uses Strategy 2. Your perception "... of MyStuff is that, in the above scenario, it would take one of the risks away by automatically rescheduling one of the recordings" is wrong. MyStuff would stop recording A at 21:00 and start recording B unless the overrun had been announced in advance in the EPG. MyStuff does not use the EIT data to start recordings, so it is not aware in real time of any overruns. What MyStuff does do is monitor the EPG and track any changes to programme timing which are announced days or hours "in advance". I guess if someone important dies they might bump your programme back an hour at a day's notice, but I've not seen it happen yet. MyStuff also plays some tricks with the end times, where it does use the EIT data. If it spots that a programme is over running, it will extend the timer to cover the over run provided that extension doesn't require it to sacrifice any other recording. A very nice feature.

IMHO this makes MyStuff a Good Thing. Each day you can look at the list of Timers in MyStuff and you can be sure that it will record those programmes at those times (provided the EPG data doesn't change). This is not true with a Freeview+ box where it will try to record those programmes but may reschedule them if overruns occur. It's kind of a hybrid between Freeview+ EIT and timer based. MyStuff also does a lot of the heavy lifting with respect to massaging padding to fit the most in; avoiding the problem where the start of the programme you want is on the end of the previous recording on the same channel etc etc.

I've had MyStuff up and running for about 6 weeks now, I estimate I've recorded about 300 programmes and it hasn't missed anything yet. This is a better record than any of my other PVRs:- my Thomson used to corrupt about 1 recording in 200; my Sagemcom misses about 1 in 100 etc. (I am OCD enough to remember this, I am also in contact with the Sagemcom software guys, asking them why their paid for software is less reliable than MyStuff written by "some guy off the internets").

So I can reassure you that MyStuff won't move all your programmes to graveyard slots! It's worth a go. It sounds like you have very much the same requirements as me. You don't even have to get embroiled in PowerSearches if you don't want to, just once a week go through the MyStuff EPG and set up a bunch of one shot timers, like I guess you do with your TiVo.

_________________
TF5800t, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 +PeR0UUuWfZ
TAPs: TAP Commander 1.34; TommyFF v2.1; BlankStuff v2.5; MyInfo B5.5; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub v0.6; TF5000 Display v1.53;
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MarkPax
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:19 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Posts: 520
A much better summary:-

If the EPG says that programmes A and C end at 21:00, and B and D begin at 21:00, MyStuff will stop recording A & C and start B & D at 21:00 on the dot. No ifs or buts. If A is running 2 minutes late you will lose the last 2 minutes of A, but you will get B and D starting at 21:00. It will never postpone B and D unless the late running A is shown in the EPG before recording of A starts.

The only question is what happens if the EPG changes between when you set the timers and when they are due to start recording. Say a minor royal dies and D is postponed to 22:00 to fit in an obituary X at 21:00 on that channel. What MyStuff does depends....
1 - if the EPG does not change to show postponed D and substituted X, MyStuff will record X starting at 21:00 exactly. You will lose D
2 - if the EPG changes well in advance to show X and postponed D...
2a if you used a one-shot MyStuff timer, MyStuff will record X starting exactly at 21:00. You will lose D
2b if you used a Search in MyStuff, MyStuff will record D

(I am not 100% sure of 2a, I have not tried it!)

I think that's what you want. It's certainly what I want and what makes MyStuff better than the Freeview+ boxes IMHO.

_________________
TF5800t, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 +PeR0UUuWfZ
TAPs: TAP Commander 1.34; TommyFF v2.1; BlankStuff v2.5; MyInfo B5.5; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub v0.6; TF5000 Display v1.53;
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Geoff Bacon
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:24 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jan 2007 Posts: 4357
It shouldn't be that difficult to test 2a (there are a lot of minor royals Laughing )

Geoff

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TF5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+EvEzPfUUuZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.4; StopExit v1.01; PruneEPG 1.0; fsSave 1.1; QuickJump 1.72; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.6; Bookmark 3.0; Extend v1.7; Font Manager 1.0d; MyInfo B5.6; MHEG On/Off A3;
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MarkPax
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:38 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Posts: 520
Geoff Bacon wrote:
It shouldn't be that difficult to test 2a (there are a lot of minor royals Laughing )

Geoff

I'll set the timers if you bump off the royal. Deal?
(waits for black helicopter to descend)

_________________
TF5800t, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 +PeR0UUuWfZ
TAPs: TAP Commander 1.34; TommyFF v2.1; BlankStuff v2.5; MyInfo B5.5; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub v0.6; TF5000 Display v1.53;
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juwlz
Posted: Sun Dec 12, 2010 11:49 pm Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 12 Aug 2005 Posts: 10801 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire (Hannington transmitter)
MarkPax wrote:
If the EPG says that programmes A and C end at 21:00, and B and D begin at 21:00, MyStuff will stop recording A & C and start B & D at 21:00 on the dot. No ifs or buts.
All assuming that they're all on different channels and/or you're not using merged recordings.
Quote:
The only question is what happens if the EPG changes between when you set the timers and when they are due to start recording. Say a minor royal dies and D is postponed to 22:00 to fit in an obituary X at 21:00 on that channel. What MyStuff does depends....
1 - if the EPG does not change to show postponed D and substituted X, MyStuff will record X starting at 21:00 exactly. You will lose D
You should only lose D if you're not also running Extend. If you are, MyStuff will have added post-padding (6 minutes by default) to the the original timer for D, and Extend will see the signal for the start of D within the end padding, and will extend it (provided it doesn't prevent E and F from recording, and the obituary doesn't last more than 2 hours).

The only possible fly in the ointment might be if X is exactly the same length as D, in which case, Extend may not be able to tell that X<>D. The plan is for some future version of MyStuff to include Extend functionality, in which case, MS would know whether the recorded programme was the intended one and can make more intelligent decisions than Extend currently can. (It can only make decisions based on intelligent guesswork around the EIT data and the expected length of the recording, the padding added, etc.)
Quote:
2 - if the EPG changes well in advance to show X and postponed D...
2a if you used a one-shot MyStuff timer, MyStuff will record X starting exactly at 21:00. You will lose D
Only if you lock the timer, I think. Otherwise it should behave as 2b. A one-shot timer (in MS 6.2) is just a special case of a search, and should behave the same way.
Quote:
2b if you used a Search in MyStuff, MyStuff will record D
Julie

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5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CfCtFsIMPePsR3UUuUxZ
5810, TS On, F/W: F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 +BmCfCtFsR3Z
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MarkPax
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 8:56 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Posts: 520
Thanks Julie
Good point re Extend
What I like about MyStuff is that it's logical - you can fairly easily understand the algorithms & so know what it's going to do each evening. With Freeview+ boxes you don't, they do what they like on the spot. I suspect what chris_s wants is this logical approach.

_________________
TF5800t, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 +PeR0UUuWfZ
TAPs: TAP Commander 1.34; TommyFF v2.1; BlankStuff v2.5; MyInfo B5.5; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub v0.6; TF5000 Display v1.53;
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chunkywizard
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:42 am Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 13 May 2005 Posts: 9319 Location: Sindlesham, Berkshire Tx: Hannington
chunkywizard wrote:
I'll host it for you on Toppy.org. If you email me the code I'll put it on line. My gmail address is chunkywizard@

HTH

CW


Mark's TAP and code can now be found at:

www.toppy.org.uk/~chunkywizard/MarkPax/BlankStuff.zip

HTH

CW

_________________
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TAPs: MyStuff | EPG2MEI | FontManager | SecCache UK | Extend | FastScanGUI | EIT_sub_game | MyInfo | ScreenCapture with OSD | MHEG On/Off
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chris_s
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:02 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 403
I really should have avoided the temptation to answer Mark's question as to why I don't use MyStuff, as I didn't want to divert the thread: I will study the various replys when life gets a little less hectic.

I am still really interested in the original reason for this thread and, as above, will eventually get round to looking at the TAP code.

Thanks all,

Chris.

_________________
TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009
TAPs: QuickJump 1.72; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; QuickBlank 0.2; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; MHEG On/Off A3; (Start Channel LCN);
Sig generated by MyInfo on 14/3/12
,
TV=Panasonic TX-32DT2 IDTV (32" CRT via CVBS-SCART), Tx: Sutton Coldfield. "My other PVR is a TiVo".
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MarkPax
Posted: Tue Dec 14, 2010 6:02 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 07 Nov 2010 Posts: 520
chris_s wrote:
I really should have avoided the temptation to answer Mark's question as to why I don't use MyStuff, as I didn't want to divert the thread: I will study the various replys when life gets a little less hectic.

I am still really interested in the original reason for this thread and, as above, will eventually get round to looking at the TAP code.

Thanks all,

Chris.

No prob at all, I find it v interesting to know what people want out of their PVRs. It's surprisingly different from person to person. Probably why PVRs get cursed so much on AVforums and DigitalSpy. Tough business to be in IMHO.

_________________
TF5800t, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 +PeR0UUuWfZ
TAPs: TAP Commander 1.34; TommyFF v2.1; BlankStuff v2.5; MyInfo B5.5; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.5; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub v0.6; TF5000 Display v1.53;
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