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<  General Toppy discussions  ~  5800 facelift model tuner quality

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richie
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:28 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Mar 2005 Posts: 156 Location: Ash Vale (Hannington)
Hi
Just plugged in my brand new 5800t, bought a few months ago. My new home has borderline freeview reception.

My old toppy scans all channels fine. The new one can't reliably find the weaker muxes (ITV/C5 on Hannington) and puts the channels at 1000+.

I have applied the nitfix firmware, after factory reset, and still this happens. If I do manually select the ITV channel, the reception is very poor, only displaying one frame every 5 seconds, maybe for a short burst then freezing again. The signal level repeatedly rises gradually from 29 to 40, quality shoots to 99 then back to 0, and signal level falls back to 29 again. This repeats every 2 seconds.

So ... normally I'd blame the reception quality, except that my old-style 5800 can receive ITV fine with signal level of 60 - 70 and quality of about 90+.

My question is .... shouldI be doing anything else other than waiting for 2012, eg apply another patch, o send the toppy back for repair? It happens on BOTH tuners.

Thanks!
Rich
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moogaloo
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:46 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 01 Jul 2005 Posts: 585 Location: Whitstable, Kent, UK
It sounds like you have not applied nitfix even though you say you have. Can you flash the firmware again and do a reset?

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nvingo
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:47 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 07 Jul 2010 Posts: 102 Location: Norfolk
I'd say check there are no strong analogue channels on a nearby frequency. Eg. the modulated output channel of the new PVR and any devices in the aerial chain preceding it.

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andyfras
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:47 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3457
I also live in a poor reception area for the Hannington transmitter.

As a Toppy PSU repairer, I have tried lots of different models and I can only receive all channels with the old silver 5800 Toppies. All the Black Panthers, Facelift 5800s and 5810s seem to have different tuners that do not work so well at my (and probably your) location.

I have tried using various values of attenuation without success and as yet I have found no solution. It is not a fault, it is a different tuner module used in later models and it does not cope with our particular signal conditions as well as the original tuners.

If you can return it for a refund, you could try to get an old silver one instead. Otherwise, put your new Toppy away until 2012.


Last edited by andyfras on Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:55 pm; edited 2 times in total

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underquark
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:47 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Oct 2005 Posts: 1790
Is the weaker signal recorded when you have unplugged the old Toppy and plugged the new one into exacty the same RF source? If you're plugging the new Toppy into a different signal source then try the old Toppy on it and see if it, too, gets a weaker signal.

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nwhitfield
Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:21 pm Reply with quote
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Tuners were changed only once, and there have been no changes since then that I'm aware of.

The original change was a few years back now, and was the reason for the updated loader.

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richie
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:59 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Mar 2005 Posts: 156 Location: Ash Vale (Hannington)
Thanks all and particularly Andy who is indeed very near me!

There probably is Analogue interference because the reason Hannington is only transmitting at 2kW to the east is so as not to interfere with Guildford before 2012. I am using the same aerial lead for each toppy, and have factory resetted, reformatted, etc as much as possible. I am convinced it is not a NIT problem now, in contrast to my original belief for a few days.

I too am planning on keeping my snazzy new toppy safe for 2012, when Guildford is switched off and Hannington is boosted to full power in the 10's of kW as I do have a spare cobbled together out of two broken ones, with a good old-fashioned tuner.

However a question for Andy if you don't mind, I'e noticed your name crop up a lot in repairer threads and you are local to me. I am using a main board from a black panther and a front display unit from my old silver toppy, because my silver hard disk went a few months ago. I am guessing this is is due to the PSU caps (5 years old). I wasn't going to diagnose this further as my reception is generally OK, though not perfect.

From what you say, if I went to the trouble of fixing or getting fixed the PSU caps, and then used my silver toppy main board, do you think my reception would then improve over the black panther main board?

Also, just wondering, can the innards of a silver toppy be fitted into a facelift toppy, and can tuners be unsoldered / swapped between toppies or are their firmware / hardware driver / software driver issues? And finally, are you able to repair toppies where the symptom is that the front panel needs replacing because it no longer responds to remote or front buttons, even though all displays are active?

It sounds like this behaviour from my new facelift toppy is to be expected and it doesn't need to be returned. I prefer the look of it, so given that I have 1 working toppy and 1 broken toppy, hopefully they will last me til switchover. So I'd rather not swap it or a silver one.

Thanks for all the help!
Rich
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andyfras
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:29 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3457
richie wrote:
...if I went to the trouble of fixing or getting fixed the PSU caps, and then used my silver toppy main board, do you think my reception would then improve over the black panther main board?

Yes.

I have as yet not had to attempt a front panel repair, but I'm happy to give it a go. There were a few earlier posts which mentioned poor solder joints being the cause of many FP problems.

I have a spare non-working main board with old type tuner modules, but I don't know if they are interchangeable with newer boards.

I think it may be possible to put a pre-facelift board in a facelift box, but again I have not tried it.

It would be well worth replacing the caps on your old silver Toppy's PSU. I can provide a kit or do the replacement for you.


Last edited by andyfras on Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:02 am; edited 1 time in total

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richie
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:33 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Mar 2005 Posts: 156 Location: Ash Vale (Hannington)
OK many thanks. Having just moved into the house this is a little lower on the priority list, but I'll take a look in the next month or so.

Andy I've seen details of the repair service but how much is the repair kit for DIY?
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andyfras
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 11:04 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3457
The kit I supply currently contains 11 capacitors and costs 5.50 inc. p&p.

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richie
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:23 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Mar 2005 Posts: 156 Location: Ash Vale (Hannington)
andyfras wrote:
The kit I supply currently contains 11 capacitors and costs 5.50 inc. p&p.


Sounds good to me, am considering getting enough for both toppies if I can repair the front panel easily.

Is it recommended to change capacitors for toppies of a certain age always, regardless of voltage measurements, or are some toppies manufactured just fine and if it ain't broke, don't fix it? (Have not yet diagnosed the reason for my drive failure, just guessing at the PSU)
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andyfras
Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2010 1:19 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3457
Most, if not all of the silver Toppies used the brown Sam Young capacitors, which I would recommend replacing regardless of age and use.

Later Toppies use black SaMXon capacitors which seem to be better, but there is a suspicion that as they age, they may go out of spec when warm, then read OK when they are back to room temperature.

For future peace of mind, if your Toppy is more than two years old, it's probably worth considering replacing the capacitors.

Fitting a fan can greatly extend the life of the capacitors and HDD, especially in a 5810.

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R2-D2
Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:54 am Reply with quote
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andyfras wrote:
Later Toppies use black SaMXon capacitors which seem to be better, but there is a suspicion that as they age, they may go out of spec when warm, then read OK when they are back to room temperature.

That's interesting -- so it's maybe advisable to have the Toppy running (or just the PSU, under load) for a while before measuring the voltages?

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andyfras
Posted: Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:57 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3457
Yes, that should give a more accurate result.

It would be advisable to switch off at the mains before removing the cover. Then switch it back on for half an hour with the cover loosely in place to allow the Toppy to get to its working temperature. Then, without turning it off, carefully lift off the cover and take the voltage measurements.

It would also be useful to take the measurements cold in order to see the difference.

We seem to have drifted off topic somewhat.

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andyfras
Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:57 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 25 Jul 2005 Posts: 3457
andyfras wrote:
As a Toppy PSU repairer, I have tried lots of different models and I can only receive all channels with the old silver 5800 Toppies. All the Black Panthers, Facelift 5800s and 5810s seem to have different tuners that do not work so well at my (and probably your) location.

I have a correction to my statement above. I repaired a black 5800 yesterday and it had the old tuners in - this is the first I've seen. Perhaps there was an overlap when the first Black Panthers appeared.

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