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<  General Toppy discussions  ~  What game is Turbosat playing with the 5810?

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jumbo
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:12 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 4731
It seems Turbosat have been off-loading (in batches), disk-less 5810s on fleabay for 80. At the same time, whilst selling many other Topfield models, they don't sell a "normal" 5810 on fleabay. However, they do sell the 5810 on their own webstore for 279 - about 70 more than many other outlets. This price effectively drives them out of the market. What is their game? Confused
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Darucla
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:55 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Jun 2007 Posts: 1544
One could almost believe in conspiracies. I don't understand why they don't put discs in and sell as refurbished. It must be more profitable. Perhaps they have been listening to Jumbo, and realize that the ventilation is inadequate, and just don't want to be liable for all those disc failures. Confused

Although a new disc would probably bring the price up to at least 180 to make it worth the effort, and that may not be sufficiently below the new price from other sources. The question then is whether the other sources are selling grey units, but that seems unlikely, as our version is pretty much only for the UK. So is the trade pricing a bit strange?

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gomezz
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:42 am Reply with quote
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Isn't there some EU law about selling components compared to selling complete products and / or about final country of manufacture and selling diskless is a way of exploiting this?

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nwhitfield
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:34 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 20 Mar 2005 Posts: 9579
Much as I hate to spoil a good conspiracy theory, the issue is apparently fairly simple, so Turbosat tell me.

The 5810 (as with the 5800) uses PATA/IDE hard drives. These are becoming increasingly hard to obtain, particularly in the large quantities that Turbosat requires. (For example, a look at the Dabs website shows 214 models of SATA drive, and only 20 of PATA/IDE, of which a mere 8 are the right form factor for the Toppy).

So, rather than have lots of 5810s sitting on the shelves waiting for more hard drives, they're being sold without them, and those who are adventurous (and can obtain or already have a suitable drive) can grab a bargain.

As for the pricing of units with drive, Turbosat's in an awkward position of being retailer and distributor. Though I've not discussed that particular point with them, I can imagine that gives them less leeway for cutting prices. Even if margins permit them to (and I don't know if they run the retail side separately, for accounting purposes), it's hardly good sense to undercut any of their own clients. No distributor would last long if they did that.

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jumbo
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 1:03 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 4731
If Turbosat count on buyers who fit their own disc drives not being able to claim under a full two year warranty (afforded by law to buyers of "used" goods from business sellers including those on eBay) then they are barking up the wrong tree. If you happen to fit a disc drive in one of these machines and get to the point where others've been then, do not hesitate for one second to claim from Turbosat for the cost of repair/replacement of both the box and the drive. They may be thinking that they could, in the even of a problem, take the diskless box back and say that it is all fine and dandy and not have to pay for your fried disc drive; WRONG! As the box is "inherently of faulty design and not ft for purpose" then they'd be liable for all damage caused by the machine including external objects that might incur consequential damage. If a faulty accelerator causes you to smashes your car into the wall, trust me, it is not just the accelerator mechanism you'd want a replacement of from the manufacturer - it is great deal more!

All that said I think it is actually a good price for these machines if you fit a decent quality SATA drive and drop the crap firmware for the recommended one and possibly provide better ventilation by perhaps drilling holes in the case. In fact I might just buy one myself Wink
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Andy K
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:36 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 3520
Yes as nigel said, I think it's just difficult/costly to get PATA drives for them and too much trouble.

THe hobbiest can fit an SATA green/cool drive then would be worth while.

A good point though Jumbo, about other hardware faults that could develop soon, it is probably just not worth it.

What we want is some good firmware to run on them, like based on 5.13.65 cough cough, R2-D2 Wink They would sell quick then.

Things seam to be at an all time low for topfield in the UK Crying or Very sad
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R2-D2
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:36 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
Andy K wrote:
What we want is some good firmware to run on them, like based on 5.13.65 cough cough, R2-D2 Wink They would sell quick then.
If Topfield were worried about sales and they agreed with your proposition then they could easily make a version of 5.13.65 that ran on the TF5810 (with HDMI and VFD support) -- and they could make it available for download if they preferred not to pre-install it (due to Freeview+ licensing/promotion issues). Personally, I've got no inclination to return this issue.

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Andy K
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:21 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 3520
Not interested anymore ?

or too difficult to do without the source code ?


I'm sure it would make many owners much happier, struggling to find a replacement for their 5800.
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ccs
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 5:42 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 2605
I still do not understand the regular posts which say how bad the 5810 firmware is.

I thought that the recommended firmware + MyStuff worked.

And if you choose to use native Freeview+ Series Links that is ok as well (subject to the failings of freeview which is hardly the fault of Topfield).

I do not suffer from any software failures (or missed recordings). I never power off to get a clean startup.

Am I the only one?

And it doesn't overheat either.

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ccsx
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Wallace
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:15 pm Reply with quote
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No ccs, you are not the only one. I am very pleased with my 5810 too!

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jumbo
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 7:48 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 4731
nwhitfield wrote:
The 5810 (as with the 5800) uses PATA/IDE hard drives. These are becoming increasingly hard to obtain, particularly in the large quantities that Turbosat requires. (For example, a look at the Dabs website shows 214 models of SATA drive, and only 20 of PATA/IDE, of which a mere 8 are the right form factor for the Toppy).

So, rather than have lots of 5810s sitting on the shelves waiting for more hard drives, they're being sold without them, and those who are adventurous (and can obtain or already have a suitable drive) can grab a bargain.


I'm afraid I find that hard to accept for the following reasons:
  • If I can buy a IDE/SATA adapter for 3 postage paid from Hong Kong arriving at my door in a week then Turbosat and/or Topfield can too! So the switch could be immediate and invisible to the end-user and in fact a positive selling point.
  • Secondly, Samsung being a Korean GIANT can have IDE drives sitting on Topfields (or Turbosat's) lap in no time certainly in a few weeks at the latest.
Humax, $ky, TechniSat, Panasonic, ... and many other "boutique" manufacturers are all in a similar position with regard to use of IDE drives. It is indeed true that the after/home PATA/IDE drive market has been shrinking fast but the source for manufacturers is still awash with suitable drives of the correct form factor! Conspiracy rules OK Wink
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Andy K
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:36 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 3520
Turbostat can't just get SATA convertors and fit them with bluetac and fit a HDD.

1) It is probably against the law for them to sell it in an uncertified condition. (it wasn't certified with an SATA adaptor hanging in it)

2) You would be the first to complain if you got one and found an SATA adaptor

3) They probably haven't got time to be messing about fitting HDD and adaptors. They aren't a factory or a hobby shop.

4) They may not wish to spend any more money on these, and just wish to clear them.

While topfield should be able to get access to PATA HDD's, turbostat probably can't.

One would assume these machines have had HDD's from a faulty batch. The obvious solutuion would be for topfield to send turbostat replacement drives. But maybe

a) Western Digital aren't honering the guarantee as the maximum recorded temp. exceeded the limit. (lets start that rumor Very Happy )

b) Maybe topfield aren't honering the guarantee with turbostat.

c) Maybe new HDD's are required for new builds to goto a more important countries.


Last edited by Andy K on Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:42 pm; edited 2 times in total
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alan_m
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 8:39 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Oct 2006 Posts: 3523
jumbo wrote:


I'm afraid I find that hard to accept for the following reasons:[list][*]If I can buy a IDE/SATA adapter for 3 postage paid from Hong Kong arriving at my door in a week then Turbosat and/or Topfield can too!


You and I can modify a design for our own use by adding an adaptor and a different type of disk without any legal repercussion. It Turbosat do the same they would probably need to go through an expensive re-testing regime to get the “new design” type approval in order to sell the box within the EU.

Topfield are possibly unwilling to go to the expense and time getting a whole lot of new approvals on an existing box.

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jumbo
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:23 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 4731
The point I make is that what Joe Average can do at minimal cost can be implemented at minute cost should they have had the will to do it. Manufacturers and/or their agents do this ALL the time. This measure would not have been considered a "rubber band and sticky tape" solution but a sensible approach to salvage their reputation and more importantly save many customers from the headache that they clearly have faced with failed machines. It is "thinking outside the box". The alternatives are far more costly as Toyota can tell you after four years of dodging the bullet Wink
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Andy K
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:28 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 3520
well clearly they don't care about their customers.
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