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Tolksee
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:52 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 169 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire
Yes, I didn't know I could make a copy of any recordings(!). Why would you want to do that anyway?? I'd be more than happy to give that functionality up for the sake of not being dumped to live TV.

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TF5800 Black Panther
MS Recommended Firmware + R0Wf
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andrec
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:56 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 15 Jul 2005 Posts: 1349 Location: Bristol, U.K.
Like humphrey1, I look on in amazement and with huge appreciation at these threads. I will only add to this one something which is almost certainly well known, but I'd kick myself if it could be of some slight use and I hadn't said it.

I regularly copy small sections of a recording in order to transfer them to PC (where it's easier to manipulate things a frame at a time). I have always been mildly surprised that I can't do a copy when a *single* off-air recording is taking place, since the Toppy can record two things at once. However, I can *rename* a file - which is also writing to the disk - even when *two* recordings are happening.

I think I understand this, especially with R2's explanation of the 'paths', but I mention it FWIW.

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DX
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:19 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 06 Apr 2005 Posts: 2695
Tolksee wrote:
Yes, I didn't know I could make a copy of any recordings(!). Why would you want to do that anyway?? I'd be more than happy to give that functionality up for the sake of not being dumped to live TV.

If you have encrypted recordings (e.g. TUTV) they will stop being playable when the encryption keys change (typically monthly). To get an unencrypted version that won't expire you need to copy the recording.
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Tolksee
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:21 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Jul 2007 Posts: 169 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire
Ahhhh. Thanks - wasn't aware of that.

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tichtich
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:27 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 08 May 2005 Posts: 1389 Location: Eastbourne, UK
R2-D2 wrote:
In fact, whenever a recording is active the system will choose PathC for playback because the system only lets you start a copy when nothing else is recording (what happens when those recordings stop and you're still playing back on PathC would be interesting... I suspect the system will still prevent the copying).

I just tried this, and you're right. I started two recordings (different muxes), then started a playback, then cancelled the two recordings, then tried to copy from the playback. The Toppy simply ignored my pressing the Rec button.

EMJB wrote:
Would it be possible for the fix to allow a TAP to select between the present logic and route C playback? That would be the ideal solution so the user could select the default mode adopted when pressing Play/OK, and the TAP provide some other (presumably less convenient) key for selecting the alternative mode.

Another possibility--for people who hardly ever copy--might be to have a new TAP which just allows users to select between two modes: "no copying/no interrupts" mode, and "allow copying" mode. I would leave my Toppy in the first mode nearly all the time, and just switch to the second mode on the very rare occasions when I want to make a copy.

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Richard Wein
Firmware: 5.13.65 (patched). Auto Start TAPs: TapCommander 1.0.2, Power Down 0.6, DescriptionExtender 2.2, mei2archive 3.8I3, Automove 1.8, QuickJump 1.54, Improbox 2.1RC8, Jag's EPG 3.0b3 (TV & radio), Media Manager 1.5, MHEG Control A2g, Extend 1.7. PC apps: DGtoTop 1.1. Profile last updated 13/05/2009
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R2-D2
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:29 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
DX wrote:
If you have encrypted recordings (e.g. TUTV) they will stop being playable when the encryption keys change (typically monthly). To get an unencrypted version that won't expire you need to copy the recording.
I think this may also help explain why the Toppy sometimes gives you a copy that's still encrypted (a problem I've heard about but have no experience of [no CAM!], and so I've not really paid attention).

I might see if forcing to PathC actually makes any difference (confidence is high!), then investigate whether it's possible to wap paths, for a better solution.
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simonc
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:50 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 5640 Location: Cheltenham
Why on earth don't they start playback on C and switch to path A or B when you start copying?
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tichtich
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:59 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 08 May 2005 Posts: 1389 Location: Eastbourne, UK
I think I've discovered something interesting, though it may not be news to everyone else.

The following discussion is only concerned with playback of completed recordings, not chaseplay. Previously I didn't understand why playback is sometimes interrupted when a second recording starts and sometimes it isn't. Now I think I know.

If there is no recording in progress when a playback starts, then the playback is apparently assigned to Path B, as that's available. When the second recording starts, the playback has to be reassigned to Path C, as recordings have to be on Paths A and B, so the playback is interrupted (with or without a CYR message).

On the other hand, if there is a recording already in progress when the playback begins, that recording will usually be on Path B, so the playback will be assigned to Path C. That means there is no need for an interruption when the second recording begins--it can just be assigned to Path A, which was previously used for the main channel (the one you're tuned to).

As well as explaining why you don't always get an interruption when the second recording begins, this also provides a way to avoid any interruptions, though it's probably too inconvenient to use in practice. If there's no recording in progress when you begin your playback, start an immediate recording (any channel will do), then start your playback, and then cancel the recording. This will force the playback to be assigned to Path C, so now you won't get any interruption if two recordings begin during the playback. I've tried this a few times, and it seems to work, though obviously it's more for interest's sake than a practical workaround.

On another question, why is it that sometimes I get a CYR message when my playback is interrupted and sometimes I don't? In fact, in normal use I never seem to get CYR messages, but I did get some while doing my experiments just now. This may be because I normally keep my Toppy tuned to LCN 100, but some of my experiments were done while tuned to LCN 1, and the first recording channel was also LCN 1, and those were the times I got a CYR message. So maybe you only get a CYR if one of the recording channels is the same as your main channel. (I can't test this theory right now, as I'm recording a programme I want.)

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Richard Wein
Firmware: 5.13.65 (patched). Auto Start TAPs: TapCommander 1.0.2, Power Down 0.6, DescriptionExtender 2.2, mei2archive 3.8I3, Automove 1.8, QuickJump 1.54, Improbox 2.1RC8, Jag's EPG 3.0b3 (TV & radio), Media Manager 1.5, MHEG Control A2g, Extend 1.7. PC apps: DGtoTop 1.1. Profile last updated 13/05/2009
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R2-D2
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:36 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
tichtich wrote:
If there is no recording in progress when a playback starts, then the playback is apparently assigned to Path B, as that's available.
It could just as easily be PathA, if you start out with a different arrangement. But it won't pick PathC when there are no recordings, in order to allow the possibility of copying.
Quote:
If there's no recording in progress when you begin your playback, start an immediate recording (any channel will do), then start your playback, and then cancel the recording.
Yes, I'd considered that, but quickly dismissed it because it can't cater for when you have two timers firing at the same time, so it's not a complete solution.
Quote:
I've tried this a few times, and it seems to work, though obviously it's more for interest's sake than a practical workaround.
It does help prove the point, though, which is nice.
Quote:
On another question, why is it that sometimes I get a CYR message when my playback is interrupted and sometimes I don't?
I think this is because sometimes stopping playback is enough to allow the recording to start (freeing up the recording path A or B), so it does. Other times the system has to do a second step, so it asks you. Although most of my testing in this particular case has the system patched so it has already performed the second step, so I don't ever see the CYR -- the path manipulation is the bit I'm missing at moment, so playback is still messed up.
Quote:
some of my experiments were done while tuned to LCN 1, and the first recording channel was also LCN 1
Yes, once the playback has stopped you're into another case of the CYR. This one sounds like the main and sub service are on the same mux, with the sub service doing the recording (as is usual for the first one).
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Andy K
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:56 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 3520
Well that's excellent progress.

I too would be happy to, not have the copy facility (I only tend to activate it accidently)

But if the fix was available in a TAP you could choose not to load it.

P.S The timeshift buffer has nothing to do with this does it ?

Maybe I will get thexmas present I really want this year. No CYR message Cool

Thanks for your efforts

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Autostart TAPs: Jags 3, Bookmark 2uk, Quickjump 1.71, Power Manager 1.1, Description Extender 1.5/2.1, MEI2Archive ▀3.8l6, Tap Launcher 3.5a, Tap Commander, AccurateBMExtend 0.3, RemoteExt 1.5, TunerRecAR.2
Launched during EPG scan: Crid, SeriesLink ▀0.35
TF5800 Version 5.13.65 PHT2UFXp5Xw3RpPcE2Bf2BqRsRh3Pf1Ec2ErEfHe1 Ra3Cf2Ct
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R2-D2
Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:01 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
Andy K wrote:
P.S The timeshift buffer has nothing to do with this does it ?
Not this case, no. If you're playing back a recording then you're not timeshifting. And the firmware likes to kill timeshifting at any (and every) opportunity. Smile
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PeteY
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:47 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 08 Dec 2006 Posts: 164 Location: Lombardy, Italy
Andy K wrote:
But if the fix was available in a TAP you could choose not to load it.


Would it be possible for a TAP to detect copying, automatically remove the patch when it starts and restore it afterwards? Then the whole thing could be transparent to the user.

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Andy K
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:37 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 3520
I would like to see if the basic fix works first. Hint Hint Laughing

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Autostart TAPs: Jags 3, Bookmark 2uk, Quickjump 1.71, Power Manager 1.1, Description Extender 1.5/2.1, MEI2Archive ▀3.8l6, Tap Launcher 3.5a, Tap Commander, AccurateBMExtend 0.3, RemoteExt 1.5, TunerRecAR.2
Launched during EPG scan: Crid, SeriesLink ▀0.35
TF5800 Version 5.13.65 PHT2UFXp5Xw3RpPcE2Bf2BqRsRh3Pf1Ec2ErEfHe1 Ra3Cf2Ct
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R2-D2
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:18 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
I think I've finally found a bit that can be adjusted, so this moves all playback onto PathC. I've tried to craft the patch so that it ought to be applicable dynamically using HDFWv2, and also removable, so when you want to do copying you can disable it: [Xp] PlayNoCYR.

At the moment, it's quite experimental, so I've not looked beyond TF5800 firmwares. If you're brave enough to try it out please try to stress and break it, and check the content of your recordings, too.
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Andy K
Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:45 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 3520
Ow excellent Smile

I guess I'm going to have to find out how this new patcher works


P.S I don't know if the PC patcher has reached the end of its life, but It's a shame it doesn't automatically create the filename for you based on all the patch letters you have added.

P.P.S FW patched read to try in a few minutes once recording finished.


Last edited by Andy K on Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:55 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Autostart TAPs: Jags 3, Bookmark 2uk, Quickjump 1.71, Power Manager 1.1, Description Extender 1.5/2.1, MEI2Archive ▀3.8l6, Tap Launcher 3.5a, Tap Commander, AccurateBMExtend 0.3, RemoteExt 1.5, TunerRecAR.2
Launched during EPG scan: Crid, SeriesLink ▀0.35
TF5800 Version 5.13.65 PHT2UFXp5Xw3RpPcE2Bf2BqRsRh3Pf1Ec2ErEfHe1 Ra3Cf2Ct
Samsung 400Gb+Fan
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