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jumbo
Posted: Wed Aug 22, 2007 4:06 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 11 Apr 2005 Posts: 4731
I got this stupid message when I was watching a previously recorded programme and had two timers firing half way through. On the second timer it moaned CYR bla bla Evil or Very Mad
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R2-D2
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:58 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
Thanks to the clear example in another thread, and FireBird's lovely little tool, here is the sequence of events which lead to a CYR, where Ch1, Ch3 and Ch5 are on different muxes/transponders:
  1. Watch Ch5. All 3 Paths on Tuner1, with PathA enabled (watching).
  2. Timer starts recording Ch1. PathB enabled on Tuner2 (recording).
  3. Playback/chase recording of Ch1. PathA changed to Tuner2 and PathC enabled on playback. Now this is the bit that strikes me as odd -- there's no need to change PathA? Unless it's linked to playback in some way and it's just unfortunate the recording started on PathB?
  4. Timer wants to start on Ch3. But both PathA and PathB are now enabled and on Tuner2, so there's no "free" tuner. However, the Toppy is displaying the recording and the log shows only PiP is using PathA (I think...), but that's only the default state (it hasn't changed from the start, and PiP wasn't being used). Anyway, the CYR pops up.
  5. Recording starts on Ch3. PathA gets changed to Tuner1.
This is just one example. I'll try to add some more when I get time -- especially what happens if you change to Ch3 (or some other channel) before starting step 3.
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R2-D2
Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:04 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
This is an interesting one:
  1. Watch Ch1. PathA enabled on Tuner2 (watching), PathB and PathC on Tuner1.
  2. Rec 1 on Ch1 start. No change.
  3. Rec 1 on Ch1 chaseplay. PathC enabled on playback.
  4. Rec 2 on Ch3 start. CYR.
  5. Rec 2 on Ch3 started. PathB enabled on Tuner1 (which it was on...)
At the point of the CYR PathB was not enabled but it was already on Tuner1. The only other change in the log (once the recording was allowed to start) was the change to the main service, which is the undesirable thing. I can see no reason in the log for this CYR at all -- so either we're missing some vital piece of information or it's as we feared: slack programming.

Here are two runs without a CYR, which also make interesting reading:
  1. Watch Ch5. All 3 Paths on Tuner1 with PathA enabled (watching).
  2. Rec 1 on Ch1 start. PathB enabled on Tuner2 (recording).
  3. Watch Ch3. No change (apart from PID on PathA, due to change of service).
  4. Rec 1 on Ch1 chaseplay. PathA changed to Tuner2 and PathC enabled on playback -- again, why is PathA changed?
  5. Rec 2 on Ch3 started. PathA gets changed to Tuner1.
And:
  1. Watch Ch5. All 3 Paths on Tuner1 with PathA enabled (watching).
  2. Rec 1 on Ch1 start. PathB enabled on Tuner2 (recording).
  3. Play other. PathC enabled on playback.
  4. Rec 2 on Ch3 started. No change.
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DB1
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:53 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Mar 2005 Posts: 728 Location: Orpington
Possibly the rules are:

1) Always use the not displaying tuner, even if same MUX, unless you are recording what you are watching.

2) If 1) does not apply then any enabled path counts as "in use".

3) CYR if both tuners are *in use*.

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R2-D2
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:56 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
Another one:
  1. Watch Ch1. All Paths on Tuner1, PathA enabled (watching).
  2. Rec 1 on Ch1 start. No change.
  3. Rec 1 on Ch1 chaseplay. PathC enabled on playback.
  4. Rec 2 on Ch3 start. CYR.
  5. Rec 2 on Ch3 started. PathB enabled on Tuner2 (which it was on...)
And no CYR for this one:
  1. Watch Ch3. PathA enabled on Tuner2 (watching), PathB and PathC on Tuner1.
  2. Rec 1 on Ch1 start. PathB enabled on Tuner1 (recording).
  3. Rec 1 on Ch1 chaseplay. PathA changed to Tuner1 and PathC enabled on playback.
  4. Rec 2 on Ch3 started. PathA changed to Tuner2.
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R2-D2
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:07 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
DB1 wrote:
Possibly the rules are:
I think there's some deep significance to PathA and playback. Look at the two variations starting with watching Ch1, both with a CYR (the only difference being PathA starting on Tuner1 or Tuner2). There is no apparent need for the CYR, since the only change is enabling PathB -- the tuner is free and so is the Path. I don't see why the main video couldn't have stayed on PathC (the chaseplay).
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FireBird
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:36 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 05 May 2005 Posts: 358 Location: Vienna/Austria
There are (intentional) limitations induced by the firmware. We had several cases where a user told me which situation doesn?t work and I could make it work by manipulating the EMMA registers. But because little is known, the manipulation may produce other side effects which are not recognizable in these short-term tests.
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R2-D2
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:34 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
FireBird wrote:
There are (intentional) limitations induced by the firmware.
Do you think there might be bits we're missing? At the moment it just strikes me that the firmware is just getting things wrong at the higher level. I suppose one thing to try is to hack out various checks to see if it's possible to make those examples not do a CYR.
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FireBird
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:20 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 05 May 2005 Posts: 358 Location: Vienna/Austria
For example, I do not know if a playback / chase play needs to be routed via path C or if it is just the way the firmware is doing it. It?s getting much more complex if decryption is involved because this needs two of the three paths.
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R2-D2
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:18 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
FireBird wrote:
For example, I do not know if a playback / chase play needs to be routed via path C or if it is just the way the firmware is doing it.
In the examples above, the changes are all as listed... this means that PathC does not change from "Enabled, Playback" even though the chaseplay has been interrupted by the CYR and the main viewing has been moved to PathB... I think this is more evidence for the firmware getting things wrong.
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Andy K
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:57 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 3520
FireBird wrote:
There are (intentional) limitations induced by the firmware. We had several cases where a user told me which situation doesn’t work and I could make it work by manipulating the EMMA registers. But because little is known, the manipulation may produce other side effects which are not recognizable in these short-term tests.


If you have a TAP or patch to try this, I for one would be happy to run it, as an experement, and wouldn't complain if missed recordings.

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R2-D2
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:34 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
Well... a degree of success in proving that the firmware seems to be doing the wrong thing. I tried this example again:
  1. Watch Ch5.
  2. Timer starts recording Ch1.
  3. Playback/chase recording of Ch1.
  4. Timer wants to start on Ch3. Thinks it can't do it, so a CYR.
  5. Recording starts on Ch3.
This time I got the CYR, but when I answered "Yes" the chaseplay continued without interruption.

So what was different? ... The tail of the CYR routine was altered to do Channel_Start() and Channel_Stop() on the sub (not main) channel. Slightly ugly side-effect of bringing up a blank PiP, but that was the simple nature of the hack.

Now, obviously this is one specific case. But it gets this one specific case wrong, and the fix is very simple.
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glenmcfar
Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:47 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 07 Dec 2006 Posts: 4519 Location: Dundonald, Ayrshire, Scotland
Excellent, are we waiting on a patch????

Glen.

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R2-D2
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:56 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
glenmcfar wrote:
are we waiting on a patch????
Smile It's not a general solution -- it just seemed something to try for an obviously dumb CYR example. More than anything, I think it shows up their flawed logic. But I'm still struggling to understand the initial parts of the routine in question.
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R2-D2
Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:35 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12148
Ah... more effort needed... the file looked like it was recording, but it was empty, so I suspect the mechanism was put in place but the data wasn't there.

Edit: no need to worry -- I just forgot to hack the recording tuner to the sub channel, too. With that fix both recordings worked fine.
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