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| JeMcK |
 Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:26 pm |
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Regular contributor
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Oxfordshire
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Following on from the major problems thread in the Bugs forum. I've packed up my toppy (unmodified TF5800PVR 160Gb bought Oct 05) and sent it back to the retailer (Superfi Internet) today.
They tell me they'll send it on to Topfield for repair. I thought I'd start a thread and post updates to let everyone know how we get on, given I've seen various other folk in different threads with problems that look as if they'll need to do the same.
I'd certainly be interested in seeing anyone else's experiences with repairs etc here.
So, we packed it back in the original box, which we still had lurking in the understairs cupboard, by a complete fluke - plus extra bubble wrap for good measure. We enclosed a letter detailing all the problems - which now include being unable to download .rec files to pc, which we've done quite happily before. I've asked to be emailed to confirm it arrives in good condition, and to be told when it goes to Topfield etc.
I sent it by special delivery - which gets me insurance up to £500 and next day delivery requiring a signature. That cost £18.50. Parcel post would have taken anything up to a week, for £11 to get £300 insurance and no kind of tracing. Given Oxon's rep for dire postal services is well deserved, I reckoned paying the extra was worth it.
Watch this space for updates.
In the meantime, I've bought a Freecom digital tv dvb-t usb stick for my pc - the little aerial it comes with is no use given our lousy reception here but plugged into the co-ax it's working well and I can record to my pc's hard drive.
No substitute for a toppy tho  |
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| ice |
| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 8:45 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 02 Feb 2006
Posts: 142
Location: London
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I bought my Toppy from Superfi some 5-6 months ago - it died in 2 days (flashing dots and no proper power on). The day I phoned them they arranged collection for that afternoon (it was midday when I phoned) and it was collected that afternoon - 2 days later I had a new replacement which is still working fine.
The replacement which was sent less than a week after I first ordered the Toppy from them, looked newer and had better packaging, etc, which was strange. |
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| JeMcK |
| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:36 pm |
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Regular contributor
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Oxfordshire
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| No email from Superfi as yet but checking Royalmail.com tells me my toppy was delivered today. Fingers crossed for a rapid repair and return. |
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| JeMcK |
| Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:53 am |
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Regular contributor
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Oxfordshire
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Superfi's website reckons their repair department will reply to letters, email, fax etc within five days. Hmmm. I'd heard nothing by yesterday so rang them. Perfectly amiable chap confirmed that my toppy had arrived in good nick last Monday and has been sent onto Topfield for repair or replacement. This should take between 10 and 21 days. They'll be in touch when it gets back to them and let me know how it's being sent back to me. So we shall see what we shall see.
The usb-telly gadget on the PC is working well and other than that, we've resorted to good old-fashioned tapes with the VHS. And yes, I've managed to record over something by mistake already, dammit.  |
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| alfablue |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:34 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 462
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| 10-21 days (plus time already taken, plus return time) is much too long to be without a Toppy!!! I would have rejected the goods and got a refund (or replacement like ice). No doubt their standard practice is not to replace after 6 months, but you may have been better demanding one (your rights are not the same as their terms and conditions). The decent thing would have been to loan you one, I think. I don't see why one should have to buy a backup system! |
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Toppy: TF5800PVR Black Panther; Firmware: 5.13.65; TX: Mendip; Remote: Harmony 885;
Autostart TAPs:UK Timers 1.2, Jag's 2.7, OzSurfer 0.11a, Power Manager 1.1; Automove, mcgCYRResume, Quickjump, TF5000display; Other applications:DigiGuide, DGtoJag, Netdrive; logmein for www timer setting; VideoReDo Plus; Nero 6.6 suite 3 Other Hardware: NSLU2 "Slug", USR Wireless ADSL Router, Joytech AV Controller |
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| JeMcK |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:58 pm |
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Regular contributor
Joined: 14 Feb 2006
Posts: 60
Location: Oxfordshire
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Does anyone know exactly what our rights here are? We're working on the information we were given by local trading standards a year or so ago, when we had major grief with something else and the supplier just didn't want to know, warranty notwithstanding.
They said if the supplier undertakes to repair something that has previously worked ok, as opposed to being dead on arrival, you pretty much have to accept that in the first instance. If that repair is no good, then you can start the 'not fit for purpose, give me another or my money back' routine.
Trust me, if we're not completely happy with what we get back, we'll be doing so.
When we sent the toppy back, Superfi got a letter with it saying exactly how unhappy we were. I must say I'm not impressed that we've had no response initiated by them so far, not even to let us know the toppy had arrived safely, as we had specifically asked.  |
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| MikeyP |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:04 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 4697
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Sale of Goods Act
Key Facts:
• Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).
• Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.
• Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.
• It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.
• If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)
• For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).
• A purchaser who is a consumer, i.e. is not buying in the course of a business, can alternatively request a repair or replacement.
• If repair and replacement are not possible or too costly, then the consumer can seek a partial refund, if they have had some benefit from the good, or a full refund if the fault/s have meant they have enjoyed no benefit
• In general, the onus is on all purchasers to prove the goods did not conform to contract (e.g. was inherently faulty) and should have reasonably lasted until this point in time (i.e. perishable goods do not last for six years).
• If a consumer chooses to request a repair or replacement, then for the first six months after purchase it will be for the retailer to prove the goods did conform to contract (e.g. were not inherently faulty)
• After six months and until the end of the six years, it is for the consumer to prove the lack of conformity. |
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| underquark |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:17 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 1456
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| As an amusing diversion until you can watch all your favourite recorded shows again, there are plans to have a re-trial (or trial, actually as it never did go all the ways in the courts) of the famous Paisley Snail. Possibly the only official use of the word "snailtainted" in the English (or any other) language. Also contains ginger beer so not for the sqeamish |
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3xTF5800PVR - 2 x 250Gb and 1 x 500Gb (Seagate ST3500630A, no fan), one Toppy with UPS and dedicated aerial; 5.13.65 (with MS Rec Firmware + [B2][Z]); MyStuff 6.1; QuickJump 1.72; EIT2MEI; UKOZSurfer; MEISearch 1.37; Various remotes - URC8820 (my fav.), URC8910 (for SWMBO), URC7562 (to learn new codes) programmed using tools from the excellent JP1 site. |
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| alfablue |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:18 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 462
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Since ammendments to consumer law in 2003 (to bring us in line with EU) for the first 6 months the presumption is that a fault existed at the time of sale, and the onus is on the vendor to prove otherwis, after that the onus of proof is reversed.
If one wants a replacement or refund one must always state that one is "rejecting the goods" because of being not fit for purpose / faulty / not of satisfactory quality, at the earliest opportunity. There is no obligation to accept repairs, but once one does (and fails to reject) then ones right to replacement / refund may be lost.
In practice, most vendors will be persuaded by firm but polite insistance, but after the 6 month period demands for replacement / refund are weaker (though not out of the question, and I have usually succeeded).
There is also (from EU law) a notional duty owed by the vendor for a period of 6 years. This might mean that they still have liability for repairs or comepensation on a sliding scale, taking into account the "enjoyment of the good" that the consumer has already received.
It does get messy after 1 year as most vendors seem to think the manufacturers 1 year warranty is the benchmark that limits liability, but it is not. Manufacturer warranties are an irrelevance (ones contract is with the vendor, and they have the duty to you).
I did, for example, get Comet to do a repair to my washing machine after 14 months (after warranty expired). Okay, it did take 2 letters (the latter being a 7 day "notice prior to action") - but then common sense kicked in.
As for SOME trading standards people, they tend to be jaded by previous cases where their half-hearted efforts have failed - I usually have more success, and I am prepared to (and do) use the small claims court.
See Consumer Direct
but note, they have updated the bit where they say the onus of proof is on the buyer withQuote: However, since the 31st March 2003, the Sale and Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations give you parallel or alternate rights. Instead of a refund, you may choose to ask for a replacement or a repair. Goods which do not conform to the contract within the six months after they were delivered are presumed to have been faulty when you got them. In these cases, you do not have to prove the fault was present when the goods were sold. Instead, the trader must prove that the fault was not present when the goods were sold. The burden of proof is on the trader.
Their Template Letters may be useful |
_________________
Toppy: TF5800PVR Black Panther; Firmware: 5.13.65; TX: Mendip; Remote: Harmony 885;
Autostart TAPs:UK Timers 1.2, Jag's 2.7, OzSurfer 0.11a, Power Manager 1.1; Automove, mcgCYRResume, Quickjump, TF5000display; Other applications:DigiGuide, DGtoJag, Netdrive; logmein for www timer setting; VideoReDo Plus; Nero 6.6 suite 3 Other Hardware: NSLU2 "Slug", USR Wireless ADSL Router, Joytech AV Controller |
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| alfablue |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 1:22 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 462
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Bu**er! MikeyP - faster and more eloquent!!!  |
_________________
Toppy: TF5800PVR Black Panther; Firmware: 5.13.65; TX: Mendip; Remote: Harmony 885;
Autostart TAPs:UK Timers 1.2, Jag's 2.7, OzSurfer 0.11a, Power Manager 1.1; Automove, mcgCYRResume, Quickjump, TF5000display; Other applications:DigiGuide, DGtoJag, Netdrive; logmein for www timer setting; VideoReDo Plus; Nero 6.6 suite 3 Other Hardware: NSLU2 "Slug", USR Wireless ADSL Router, Joytech AV Controller |
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| micken |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:34 pm |
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Regular contributor
Joined: 26 May 2006
Posts: 80
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Quote: Bu**er! MikeyP - faster and more eloquent!!!
Not so, I have just sent an e mail to Amazon informing them of an MP3 player that was dispatched to me on 28th December 2005. It went faulty last week and I was able to use your comments in support of my own to remind them of their obligations as vendors. The only information I could find on the Amazon site relating to goods outside the 30 day 'cooling off' period suggested contacting the manufacturers in the first instance.
Thanks for your words.
Mick |
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| alfablue |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:39 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 462
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Ah...feel better now!
Well done micken, this sort of thing Quote: goods outside the 30 day 'cooling off' period suggested contacting the manufacturers
Hopefully Amazon will see fit to save themselves from disgrace! |
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Toppy: TF5800PVR Black Panther; Firmware: 5.13.65; TX: Mendip; Remote: Harmony 885;
Autostart TAPs:UK Timers 1.2, Jag's 2.7, OzSurfer 0.11a, Power Manager 1.1; Automove, mcgCYRResume, Quickjump, TF5000display; Other applications:DigiGuide, DGtoJag, Netdrive; logmein for www timer setting; VideoReDo Plus; Nero 6.6 suite 3 Other Hardware: NSLU2 "Slug", USR Wireless ADSL Router, Joytech AV Controller |
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| alfablue |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:46 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 462
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JeMcK wrote: (trading standards) said if the supplier undertakes to repair something that has previously worked ok, as opposed to being dead on arrival, you pretty much have to accept that in the first instance. If that repair is no good, then you can start the 'not fit for purpose, give me another or my money back' routine.
Reading this again, I reckon this Trading Standards dept is actually going to cause more trouble with this sort of advice. They should be telling people to reject goods in the first instance. If you don't reject, you can't later (well, only with extreme effort/luck). And once into (maybe a series of) repairs, it will always be much trickier to retrieve any satisfactory remedy. I think this TS dept are just plain wrong!
The other thing with rejecting in the first instance is that then the vendor can make an offer to repair (which you may actually prefer, for some reason, maybe if for example it is an unusual / difficult to source item), but the ball remains in your court to choose between refund/replace/repair - you still have some control. They may even try harder given that they know you will seek a refund if they mess about (well, one can hope, anyway). |
Last edited by alfablue on Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:52 pm; edited 3 times in total
_________________
Toppy: TF5800PVR Black Panther; Firmware: 5.13.65; TX: Mendip; Remote: Harmony 885;
Autostart TAPs:UK Timers 1.2, Jag's 2.7, OzSurfer 0.11a, Power Manager 1.1; Automove, mcgCYRResume, Quickjump, TF5000display; Other applications:DigiGuide, DGtoJag, Netdrive; logmein for www timer setting; VideoReDo Plus; Nero 6.6 suite 3 Other Hardware: NSLU2 "Slug", USR Wireless ADSL Router, Joytech AV Controller |
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| MikeyP |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:48 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 17 Jan 2006
Posts: 4697
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it *is* amazing how many retailers don't offer the info and have to be reminded of the rules by the punter himself
if they can get away with it - they will get away with it
'down wid dat sort of thing' as father ted once said  |
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| alfablue |
| Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:58 pm |
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Frequent contributor
Joined: 10 Aug 2005
Posts: 462
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MikeyP wrote: it *is* amazing how many retailers don't offer the info and have to be reminded of the rules by the punter himself
Yes, amazing and depressing.
It reminds me of when a guy in Ikea returns dept argued with me for ages (a pair of wooden blinds fell apart after 6 months) that I could only have a replacement. These blinds were for a room with a huge ceiling height, such that I had to hire an extension ladder to fit them, no way I would want to do that twice a year when they collapsed - they were obviously too long and too flimsy to support the weight of the materials they were made of.
The most embarassing thing was he claimed to have a law degree from the Uni I work in, and he was clueless. 
I did of course succeed in getting the refund, but it was a total waste of 20 minutes and leaves a very bad feeling about the shop. The other amazing thing is why they are prepared to back down (i.e. do the right thing) after they have lost all goodwill with the customer. Doesn't make sense to me  |
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Toppy: TF5800PVR Black Panther; Firmware: 5.13.65; TX: Mendip; Remote: Harmony 885;
Autostart TAPs:UK Timers 1.2, Jag's 2.7, OzSurfer 0.11a, Power Manager 1.1; Automove, mcgCYRResume, Quickjump, TF5000display; Other applications:DigiGuide, DGtoJag, Netdrive; logmein for www timer setting; VideoReDo Plus; Nero 6.6 suite 3 Other Hardware: NSLU2 "Slug", USR Wireless ADSL Router, Joytech AV Controller |
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