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HydeTheDarkerSide
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:03 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 5952 Location: Hannington Transmitter : Sony KDL 40Z5800
Well that's what I've done now, including a full power off at the wall.

So the first step was moving the focus from BBC1 in the toppy epg to ITV1, naturally the focus just lands on the channel name in grid view as there aren't any programmes displayed. A couple of seconds after landing on ITV1 the toppy epg populated for ITV1 and all the other No Information channels (or at least all the others I could see from that one view in the grid epg).

So then powered down and pulled plug from the wall. Then replugged and waited for the toppy to boot up. Toppy epg still fully populated, but nothing in MyStuff. Just waiting now not touching anything (whilst watching ITV1) to see if MyStuff will get prodded by epg2mei to reload the epg data.

So, to summarise...

Once the toppy gets into this state it persists across switches to standby.
Only highlighting an impacted channel kicks the toppy into displaying this data in its own epg.
Powering off at the wall doesn't force the data from epg2mei into MyStuff.
Moving EIT Sub (Game) v0.6 into program files and switching toppy to standby and back on again has no effect.
Doing the same with MHEG Control B2 has no effect.
Activating the MHEG engine by pressing text and exiting has no effect.

Oh hang on, a Load/Search has just kicked off. Yup we're back to a full epg in MyStuff too.

Only performed the tests with MHEG as I think I read somewhere someone having an issue with this TAP running.

Current TAP load order:-

MHEG Control
MyStuff NG
Extend 1.7
SecCache (UK) v0.4
MyInfo B4.1a
EPG2MEI v0.95
EIT Sub (Game) v0.6

_________________
Hyde.
2x TF5800 All controlled with Harmony Ultimate , TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -RSy+BmC0CbCfCtDsEgEmEvFsGIMPePsR0ScUUuWfXZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.3; EPG2MEI v0.96; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.5 RC2;
MyStuff Links: http://www.toppy.org.uk/~mystuff/index.shtml
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R2-D2
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2009 5:12 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
HydeTheDarkerSide wrote:
So the first step was moving the focus from BBC1 in the toppy epg to ITV1, naturally the focus just lands on the channel name in grid view as there aren't any programmes displayed. A couple of seconds after landing on ITV1 the toppy epg populated for ITV1 and all the other No Information channels
That is very odd behaviour indeed. AFAIK moving the selection in the native EPG just shows different data -- I don't remember anything subtle affecting the EIT gathering, and it would be most strange indeed if there were (which doesn't, of course, rule it out!).
Quote:
Toppy epg still fully populated, but nothing in MyStuff.
So are you actually losing data from EPG2MEI? If you had some of that data at some point then EPG2MEI should be using that old data to fill in the gaps.

Being a bit paranoid, I'd turn off Interactive Services for a while and leave it off (with no MHEG TAP running). If things are persisting across Standbys then I'd consider doing a Factory Reset as well.

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HydeTheDarkerSide
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:21 am Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 5952 Location: Hannington Transmitter : Sony KDL 40Z5800
IS is switched off hence the tap Wink I think I've used it twice in the last 12 months so I can remove it altogether and see what happens.

Yes I do lose the epg2mei data. The last time this happened I opened the file in notepad and noticed that all the No Information impacted channels were completely missing from the file.

_________________
Hyde.
2x TF5800 All controlled with Harmony Ultimate , TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -RSy+BmC0CbCfCtDsEgEmEvFsGIMPePsR0ScUUuWfXZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.3; EPG2MEI v0.96; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.5 RC2;
MyStuff Links: http://www.toppy.org.uk/~mystuff/index.shtml
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Versatile
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 11:46 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Wokingham; Transmitters - Hannington + C. Palace
R2-D2 wrote:
There's an issue in v0.94 that will dump the old data (from a previous scan) if the internal EPG data you now have misses the first channel -- but that's such a strange thing to happen in the UK that it was only picked up by a tester in Australia.


First let me confirm that upgrading to v0.95 makes no difference to this particular problem. I have also tried powering off at the wall socket and running without SecCache and EIT Sub, no change was evident.

Subsequently I have looked a little more closely at the symptoms and they seem to me to point to the Toppy firmware as the culprit. Apologies if there is a flaw in my assumptions since I do not know exactly how the various processes work. This morning I did a test and here are my observations:

1. Made sure both Mystuff and native Toppy show fully populated EPG and viewed channel set to BBC1.
2. Put Toppy into standby and waited 30- 60 seconds.
3. Switched on Toppy and waited for MyStuff to run load and search cycles (by observing roundels).
4. Immediately viewed MyStuff EPG, which looked fully populated.
5. Switched to native Toppy EPG (using single channel view) and saw that BBC1 was blank; used right arrow to show BBC2 which looked like it was populating; used right arrow again to switch to ITV1 which was unpopulated. Used left arrow to get back to BBC1 which was now populating and then used right arrow to check past ITV1. Channel 4, Five, and ITV2 all unpopulated then BBC3 and BBC4 populated.
6. Pressed Exit to leave native Toppy EPG then Guide to view MyStuff EPG which was still fully populated. Pressed Exit to leave EPG
7. Waited till next MyStuff load/search had completed (staring at screen for many minutes looking for roundels is tricky and I may have missed it but I only recall seeing the search roundel?).
8. Went into MyStuff EPG and, lo and behold, BBC1, BBC2, BBC3 and BBC4 were populated but now No Information was showing against ITV1, Channel 4 and ITV2. This mirrored what the native Toppy EPG showed. Experience has shown that the Toppy native EPG will remain in this partly populated state until the channel is changed either manually or by a recording.

My conclusion from this is that the behaviour of the MyStuff/EPG2mei pairing is what might be expected i.e. it follows the native Toppy EPG albeit with the expected time lag. In some ways it's a pity the caching process allows for the deletion of a complete channel? The finger of suspicion therefore points at the native Toppy processes. Whether the native Toppy EPG being blank on some channels is a display or a gathering problem I could not say but suspicion must fall on the gathering.

Finally I would restate that I have seen the blank channels in the native Toppy EPG ever since Bastille and only became a MyStuff afficionado with the introduction of v6. Personally I don't think Topfield made a good job of the changes needed to keep the viewed channel static in the native EPG.

Hope this information helps in some way.

_________________
TF5800, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 2/6/2009 +CwFmOtTdVr
TAPs: Power Manager v1.1; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.31; EIT Sub v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.0; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; MyInfo B4.1a;
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R2-D2
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:40 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
Versatile wrote:
In some ways it's a pity the caching process allows for the deletion of a complete channel?
It shouldn't do that! If there were data before on a channel then it should use that if there's none (or gaps) in the current data -- this is used primarily for keeping the whole previous 24 hours of data (the Toppy keeps only up to the start of today if you're using [Ez]).
Quote:
Finally I would restate that I have seen the blank channels in the native Toppy EPG ever since Bastille and only became a MyStuff afficionado with the introduction of v6.
Ooh, that's interesting. I wonder if this is something to do with the specific data from your transmitter/signal -- there's another thread where someone gets blank named entries in the EPG. Confused
Quote:
Personally I don't think Topfield made a good job of the changes needed to keep the viewed channel static in the native EPG.
What's the grid view like in this funny state? You should see BBC1, BBC2, ITV1 and C4 on screen at once --does simply moving the selection affect the gathering in this mode?

EPG2MEI usually only reads the data (and follows the linkage set up natively). However, if there are duplicates then it will modify the stored data by using the native deletion routine to strip them out -- turn off "StripDups" to disable this if you think it might be having an effect, or turn on the "Debug" option to see (in the log file) if it's doing any deletions on any particular run.

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Versatile
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:50 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Wokingham; Transmitters - Hannington + C. Palace
Versatile wrote:
R2-D2 wrote:
There's an issue in v0.94 that will dump the old data (from a previous scan) if the internal EPG data you now have misses the first channel -- but that's such a strange thing to happen in the UK that it was only picked up by a tester in Australia.


First let me confirm that upgrading to v0.95 makes no difference to this particular problem.

I was wrong here Embarassed , another variant of my test seems to show that v0.95 does make a difference in another example of the problem. Here are the two examples I have now tried:

Using v0.94:
1. Ensure both native and MyStuff EPG are fully populated, with viewing channel set to BBC1. Put toppy into standby for 30 secs then power up. Wait as in previous post; final stable end result both EPG have BBC1/2 populated and ITV1/CH4/FIVE unpopulated.

2. Ensure both native and MyStuff EPG are fully populated, with viewing channel set to ITV1. Put toppy into standby for 30 secs then power up. Wait as in previous post; final stable end result both EPG have BBC1/2 unpopulated and ITV1/CH4/FIVE populated.

Using v0.95:
1. Ensure both native and MyStuff EPG are fully populated, with viewing channel set to BBC1. Put toppy into standby for 30 secs then power up. Wait as in previous post; final stable end result both EPG have BBC1/2 populated and ITV1/CH4/FIVE unpopulated (no change).

2. Ensure both native and MyStuff EPG are fully populated, with viewing channel set to ITV1. Put toppy into standby for 30 secs then power up. Wait as in previous post; final stable end result native EPG has BBC1/2 unpopulated and ITV1/CH4/FIVE populated, MyStuff EPG fully populated. Presumably the bug fix has prevented channel deletion in this case.

Note: I've tried repeating the above with StripDups OFF and it makes no obvious difference.


R2-D2 wrote:
What's the grid view like in this funny state? You should see BBC1, BBC2, ITV1 and C4 on screen at once --does simply moving the selection affect the gathering in this mode?

Grid view just seems to mirror single channel views, moving selection has no effect on population, only actually switching to an unpopulated channel.


Conclusions: Toppy EPG gathering definitely has a problem with my setup but bug fix has stopped MyStuff EPG channel deletion in one of the test cases (where first channel native EPG is blank).


If my (and Hydes') experiences are unique (?) then the only thing I can think that might have a bearing is the fact that I have to run with a mix of transmitters as posted above (Mux 1 and A Hannington, all other Muxes Crystal Palace). But I presume Hyde is 100% Hannington?

Has this given any more insight? There seem to be two seperate issues here, first would be to try to increase robustness of EPG2MEI when any native EPG channel is blank. The second would be to try to establish why the Toppy fails to fully populate in the first place. Is it worth my getting a DEBUG log or are there any useful hints above?

Thanks for your continued interest in this oddity.

_________________
TF5800, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 2/6/2009 +CwFmOtTdVr
TAPs: Power Manager v1.1; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.31; EIT Sub v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.0; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; MyInfo B4.1a;
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R2-D2
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 3:27 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
Versatile wrote:
There seem to be two seperate issues here, first would be to try to increase robustness of EPG2MEI when any native EPG channel is blank.
The bug in v0.94 caused the old data (from a previous scan) to effectively be dropped when the current set of data no longer contains anything at all for the first channel. This doesn't seem to be normal on the modern UK firmwares, with UK broadcasters (supposed to be) sending the complete EPG on each mux.
Quote:
The second would be to try to establish why the Toppy fails to fully populate in the first place.
I'd have thought that EIT_Sub should be nothing but a help, since it radically simplifies the EIT collection mechanism and makes it robust. But your broadcast data may be different from that we've seen before and SecCache might be ignoring it -- although you said you've tried with that, and also seen problems with just the Bastille firmware, so it may be something odder...

You might try the non-UK version of SecCache (which is heavy on memory usage), and if that makes a difference then the debug version of the UK form of SecCache should help diagnose what's different with your data.

I'm still a bit confused about the channel selection in the native EPG making a difference to this. When you select another channel the preview image doesn't change channel, does it? So I wouldn't expect anything else to change. Odd indeed.

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Versatile
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 6:59 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 28 Jul 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Wokingham; Transmitters - Hannington + C. Palace
R2-D2 wrote:
I'm still a bit confused about the channel selection in the native EPG making a difference to this. When you select another channel the preview image doesn't change channel, does it? So I wouldn't expect anything else to change. Odd indeed.

Are we a little bit at cross-purposes here ? Say BBC1 is the current TV viewing channel; I go into the native EPG (so preview image is BBC1) and say at the time the native EPG is blank on ITV1,CH4 and FIVE (strangely for this case only Mux 2 is unpopulated, all others are OK); if I use the right arrow to move from channel to channel BBC1 remains the preview image and the EPG is shown for each channel in turn (obviously blank for some). In this case there is no change. The change (population) starts if I am on say CH4 native EPG and press OK. This exits the EPG and switches the TV channel to CH4. If I go straight back into native EPG I can watch ITV1, CH4 and FIVE all busy populating.

I'll investigate pure native TAPless behaviour to see if it is the same and also see if I can get a good enough signal to try behaviour on just one transmitter for all Muxes.

_________________
TF5800, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 2/6/2009 +CwFmOtTdVr
TAPs: Power Manager v1.1; SecCache (UK) v0.4; TF5000 Display v1.31; EIT Sub v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.0; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; MyInfo B4.1a;
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R2-D2
Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:04 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
Versatile wrote:
The change (population) starts if I am on say CH4 native EPG and press OK. This exits the EPG and switches the TV channel to CH4. If I go straight back into native EPG I can watch ITV1, CH4 and FIVE all busy populating.
Ah right, that's more understandable -- but Hyde was reporting that moving the selection in grid view kicked the EIT collection into working. Confused

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HydeTheDarkerSide
Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:53 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 5952 Location: Hannington Transmitter : Sony KDL 40Z5800
R2-D2 wrote:
Versatile wrote:
The change (population) starts if I am on say CH4 native EPG and press OK. This exits the EPG and switches the TV channel to CH4. If I go straight back into native EPG I can watch ITV1, CH4 and FIVE all busy populating.
Ah right, that's more understandable -- but Hyde was reporting that moving the selection in grid view kicked the EIT collection into working. Confused
Indeed, for me, all I had to do was cursor from a working channel to a non-working channel and hey presto a second or two later it was fully populated. I didn't have to exit the EPG or physically change to watch that channel to get the Toppy epg to populate.

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Hyde.
2x TF5800 All controlled with Harmony Ultimate , TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -RSy+BmC0CbCfCtDsEgEmEvFsGIMPePsR0ScUUuWfXZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.3; EPG2MEI v0.96; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.5 RC2;
MyStuff Links: http://www.toppy.org.uk/~mystuff/index.shtml
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sweep
Posted: Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:58 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 173 Location: Winter Hill
Please may I ask some questions

May I ask what the acronymns EIT and MEI stand for ?

If I install EIT and sec_cache TAPs in autostart, do I need to make sure they load before EIT2MEI?

I see from people's sigs some have "EIT Sub (Game) v0.6" and some have just "EIT Sub v0.6". So what are the differences between playing hex from the native toppy (menu -> game) and having the "EIT Sub (Game) v0.6" sub patch installed?

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TF5800, IA On, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Fm
TAPs: Extend v1.7; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.1; MyInfo B4.1a; EIT Sub v0.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 3/12/09
Installed patch string: AbBfBqCeCkCpCwCyDeEcEeEfEpErEsFGmHHeKtMhNfOtPPcRRaReRhRpRsSSdSlSrStSyT2TdTeTfTpTsVrXpXwXl
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kermit
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:29 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 01 Jun 2005 Posts: 972 Location: Brisbane, Australia
sweep wrote:
May I ask what the acronymns EIT and MEI stand for ?

Event Information Table and MyStuff Extended Information

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Cheers Simon
>8-]

TF5000PVRt 500GB March '09 f/w
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juwlz
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:45 am Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 12 Aug 2005 Posts: 10344 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire (Hannington transmitter)
kermit wrote:
sweep wrote:
May I ask what the acronymns EIT and MEI stand for ?
Event Information Table and MyStuff Extended Information
Formerly MyStuff Extended Info; alternatively "More Epg Info". The file format used by MyStuff and other TAPs to hold EPG information.

Information about Eit_sub is on R2-D2's web page and in its (linked) thread.

Julie

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5800, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy+BmC0CfCtFsIMPePsR3UUuUxZ
5810, TS On, F/W: F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 +BmCfCtFsR3Z
MyStuff info; Help!; Reference
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sweep
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:15 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Posts: 173 Location: Winter Hill
Thanks for the acronymn explanations guys

juwlz wrote:
Information about Eit_sub is on R2-D2's web page and in its (linked) thread.
The linked thread is this one Wink
I guess EIT Sub Game is just EIT Sub which auto calls the game - I'll give it a go later

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TF5800, IA On, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Fm
TAPs: Extend v1.7; EPG2MEI v0.96; MyStuff 6.1; MyInfo B4.1a; EIT Sub v0.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 3/12/09
Installed patch string: AbBfBqCeCkCpCwCyDeEcEeEfEpErEsFGmHHeKtMhNfOtPPcRRaReRhRpRsSSdSlSrStSyT2TdTeTfTpTsVrXpXwXl
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ccs
Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 1:37 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 30 Oct 2007 Posts: 1894 Location: E Yorkshire Belmont Transmitter
sweep wrote:
Thanks for the acronymn explanations guys

juwlz wrote:
Information about Eit_sub is on R2-D2's web page and in its (linked) thread.
The linked thread is this one Wink
I guess EIT Sub Game is just EIT Sub which auto calls the game - I'll give it a go later


Here's the link to the game version thread.

_________________
TF5810, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -FmXl+CtEzIScVdZ
TAPs: EIT Sub v0.6; EPG2MEI v0.96; MPDisplayLITE V1.2; MyInfo B5.6; SecCache (UK) v0.4; Extend v1.7; MyStuff 6.5;
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ccsx
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