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Dj4man
Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 9:27 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Location: United Kingdom
Hi guys,

(Tried searching but over 800 pages coming back and looked through 20 and still not found my answers)

My brother gave me his Toppy 5800pvr, said all it needs is updating via a laptop. Great, or so I thought!

I've downloaded topfield tools and installed that. Connected the Toppy via USB lead, Win Xp installed the drivers ok. Tried to update the firmware using the link from the update page on this site and it cannot connect to the Toppy. Tried restarting both the toppy and laptop. Still no connection.

Altair only shows a greyscale area on left window pane. No data of any kind is showing here except for the laptops drive.

Also, not sure if connected to the problem, when I first tuned in the Toppy and started watching the channels, the box started clicking loudly. It would click for a while and the remote became unresponsive (could be the batteries though). Turning off the box is quick but I have to wait a few mins before the box turns back on and it has lost the channels I had previously searched for.

Is this a HHD fault or PSU fault? How much to fix the PSu or replace the HDD?

Thanks in advance.

Dan

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alan_m
Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:24 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 17 Oct 2006 Posts: 3202 Location: Southchurch Village, Southend-on-Sea
edit - rearranged answers to give more important one first


Quote:

Also, not sure if connected to the problem, when I first tuned in the Toppy and started watching the channels, the box started clicking loudly.


One of the classic signs of a power supply failing. The only moving part in the Toppy is the hard disk and this could have been the only thing clicking.
Usually a PSU capacitor (13 off) replacement will restore full working order. A easy and cheap DIY job if you have some electronics experience or a couple of forum members offer a reasonably priced repair service.
See http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Topfield_5800/PSU_Repair

Quote:


Is this a HHD fault or PSU fault? How much to fix the PSu or replace the HDD?


It could be either or both but generally the PSU goes first and the hard disk survives unless the power supplies to the HDD goes around 30% high.

Find a post from andyfras (Fleet Hampshire) Or MikeyP (Bolton) and hit the PM (personal message) button in their signatures and ask for a price. If you are going the DIY route the capacitor kits they can supply contain high quality capacitors and buying from them aviod the minimum order charges from some of the electronic component suppliers.

One of Andy's posts
http://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=251823#251823
His web site
https://sites.google.com/site/andyfraserelectronics/freeview-and-satellite-recorder-repair/topfield-pvr-faults

One of Mike;s posts
http://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=247206#247206
His web site
http://www.mpavservice.co.uk/



Dj4man wrote:

I've downloaded topfield tools and installed that. Connected the Toppy via USB lead, Win Xp installed the drivers ok. Tried to update the firmware using the link from the update page on this site and it cannot connect to the Toppy. Tried restarting both the toppy and laptop. Still no connection.



If something has crashed sometimes a cold/hard boot of the Toppy helps. Remove the mains plug for two minutes (to allow the internal voltages to fully discharge) and then reinstall power. You don't get a cold boot if you just put the box into standby.

In which order did you install the driver and connect to your Toppy?
If you connect the Toppy BEFORE you install the driver Windoze will helpfully install some generic driver that will not work with the Toppy.
A utility such as USBDeview can identify the driver associated with the Toppy (and allow you to remove it if incorrect).
http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/usb_devices_view.html

An alternative to Topfield Tools is Antares
http://haselgrove.id.au/antares/
http://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=222156#222156

Try also TopManager to see if you can communicate with the Toppy
http://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17888

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Dj4man
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:43 am Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Location: United Kingdom
Hi Alanm,

Yes I installed tools before connecting Toppy. I did the cold start as you suggested. The Toppy had been off all night. As soon as I turned on Toppy, Altair detected the Toppy HDD. Successful connection. So tried to the a firmware update, screen on TV said 'LOADING' then an error on the firmware loader said that it could not read/retrieve the directories from Toppy.

Again, there was a repetitive clicking cycle from the Toppy box.

So it's either my HDD or the PSU not giving enough power for the HDD?

I don't have a desktop, so I can't test the HDD in there. Will PM a few people and ask about for the PSU repair kits.

Unless there is something else I should try first? I do have a multi-meter, however, the last firmware update was 2005 and I know my brother wouldn't of looked into getting any repairs done on it.

Dan

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juwlz
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:55 am Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 12 Aug 2005 Posts: 10373 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire (Hannington transmitter)
Are you using the recommended firmware installer from here?

Also, only one application can talk to the Toppy at a time, so you must exit Altair before trying a firmware update.

Julie

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Dj4man
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:07 am Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Location: United Kingdom
juwlz wrote:
Are you using the recommended firmware installer from here?

Also, only one application can talk to the Toppy at a time, so you must exit Altair before trying a firmware update.

Julie


Yes i'm using the installer from there and yes, Altair was closed fully. Even restarted the laptop and only ran the installer without booting Altair at all.

Cheers,

Dan

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alan_m
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:27 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 17 Oct 2006 Posts: 3202 Location: Southchurch Village, Southend-on-Sea
Dj4man wrote:


Unless there is something else I should try first? I do have a multi-meter, however, the last firmware update was 2005 and I know my brother wouldn't of looked into getting any repairs done on it.

Dan


The Toppy's power supplies often die after 2 to 4 years of use (many hundreds of cases documented in these forums) so the chances is that it is the PSU.

As you have a multimeter check the PSU voltages as detailed in
http://www.members.optusnet.com.au/toppytools/pwrcircuit.html

If you find them way out of specification remove the power until you have fixed the PSU. Out of spec is around more than 5% out. The 8V line reads low by around 0.5V on a working Toppy and the 22V is mis-labeled and should be 24V (it is around 24.5V on a working Toppy)

Note the warning about 300+V being on the metal heatsink at the back of the power supply board while the Toppy is on, including standby.
As shown in first photo on http://www.admac.myzen.co.uk/toppy_fan/

The advice in that article about replacing 6 off capacitors is out-of-date and replacing up to 13 capacitors is the current recommendation.

[Edit] corrected % figure for out-of-spec[/edit]


Last edited by alan_m on Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total

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juwlz
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:42 am Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 12 Aug 2005 Posts: 10373 Location: Wokingham, Berkshire (Hannington transmitter)
Dj4man wrote:
juwlz wrote:
Are you using the recommended firmware installer from here?

Also, only one application can talk to the Toppy at a time, so you must exit Altair before trying a firmware update.

Yes i'm using the installer from there and yes, Altair was closed fully. Even restarted the laptop and only ran the installer without booting Altair at all.
OK. Time to unplug from the mains and replace the capacitors before any more damage to the more expensive components (hard drive, tuners, etc.) results. See Toppy Repairs.

Julie

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Dj4man
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:44 am Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Location: United Kingdom
I've done a voltage check and here are the results.

I had the Toppy turned on, channel 6 but NO antenna connecteced.

30v - 31v
22v - 24.7v
17v - 17.05v
8v - 7.52v
5v - 4.96v
3.3v - 3.32v
15v - 15.6v

So from those figures, I'm assuming that the PSU is currently in an ok state?! I noticed that the HDD only 'clicked' twice during the test. Maybe I need to plug the antenna in to get a proper test and hence why the 'clicking' noise had almost stopped?

Dan

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alan_m
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:03 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 17 Oct 2006 Posts: 3202 Location: Southchurch Village, Southend-on-Sea
Dj4man wrote:
I've done a voltage check and here are the results.

I had the Toppy turned on, channel 6 but NO antenna connecteced.

30v - 31v
22v - 24.7v
17v - 17.05v
8v - 7.52v
5v - 4.96v
3.3v - 3.32v
15v - 15.6v

So from those figures, I'm assuming that the PSU is currently in an ok state?! I noticed that the HDD only 'clicked' twice during the test. Maybe I need to plug the antenna in to get a proper test and hence why the 'clicking' noise had almost stopped?

Dan


They look OK but check with aerial lead in and, if possible, the disk running (time shifting or playback of recording). There are another two voltages on the smaller connector next to the one you checked.

One common failure is that the 5V line starts going low which, as it is the PSU reference line, forces the other voltages to go high (except the 3.3V which has its own regulator).

Check the two connectors on the back of the hard disk haven't been dislodged during transportation. AGAIN WATCH OUT FOR THE 300+V - which can bite Smile

The Toppy can also run as a basic receiver with the hard disk disconnected. It may be worth seeing if anything else is not working in this mode. A rescan for channels first requires a factory reset (factory settings from the Toppy menu). A rescan alone only adds to what you have and doesn't remove any redundant information. You may/will not be able to use the installer in this mode as it writes intermediate information to the disk but you could upgrade the firmware using the TFDN_USB utility that came with Topfield Tools.

Using TFDN-USB (towards the bottom of) http://www.toppy.org.uk/downloads/firmware.php

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Dj4man
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:04 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Location: United Kingdom
Update..

After carrying out the voltage test and swapping the HDD (which the replacement didn't work as I suspected) I replaced with the original HDD and turned on. Fired up fine (Not literally!) The HHD spun up fine. Went into the menu and formatted the HDD, which worked fine. Then successfully updated the firmware.

All is good. I tried then to scan for channels and it didn't find anything. I only managed to get 10 channels in the first place due to using a small, portable aerial.

This PVR will be in our bedroom so i'm using the external aerial but need to re-wire it to our bedroom.

Once I've routed the cable into place I will test again, but for now, it is working 100% better and updated.

***It still has the Sam Young capacitors in the PSU so I will order a DIY kit and change these anyway***

Dan

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juwlz
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:14 pm Reply with quote
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Dj4man wrote:
I replaced with the original HDD and turned on. Fired up fine (Not literally!) The HHD spun up fine. Went into the menu and formatted the HDD, which worked fine. Then successfully updated the firmware.
Beware! Did you check the sticky Disk upgrades - summary of working and non-working models before picking a hard drive to put in it? Not all drives will work, and even some that seem OK at first will give problems longer term. And of course, without changing the capacitors, you may well fry the new drive anyway, so you might want to put things on hold until you have your spares kit.

Julie

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Dj4man
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:22 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 18 Aug 2012 Posts: 9 Location: United Kingdom
juwlz wrote:
Dj4man wrote:
I replaced with the original HDD and turned on. Fired up fine (Not literally!) The HHD spun up fine. Went into the menu and formatted the HDD, which worked fine. Then successfully updated the firmware.
Beware! Did you check the sticky Disk upgrades - summary of working and non-working models before picking a hard drive to put in it? Not all drives will work, and even some that seem OK at first will give problems longer term. And of course, without changing the capacitors, you may well fry the new drive anyway, so you might want to put things on hold until you have your spares kit.

Julie


The drive i used was possibly a faulty one from an old desktop i once had anyway. Yes it was on the list but is still faulty I assume. Hence why I put the ORIGINAL HDD back into the Toppy and formatted that one.

Cheers,

Dan

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alan_m
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:26 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 17 Oct 2006 Posts: 3202 Location: Southchurch Village, Southend-on-Sea
Dj4man wrote:
Update..

After carrying out the voltage test and swapping the HDD (which the replacement didn't work as I suspected) I replaced with the original HDD and turned on.


Not all disks work in a Toppy. Many people upgrading elect to use a modern "green" SATA disk of 1Gbyte, or larger, which often take a lot less power than the original disks. A PVR doesn't require a high speed/performance disk and so there is an acceptable trade off between power/noise and performance. This upgrade route requires a PATA to SATA converter. Not all SATA disks/converters combinations work in a Toppy Sad However, there are couple of threads in the forums detailing working and non-working disks/adapters.
http://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14902
http://forum.toppy.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17720

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YorkshireJumbo
Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:17 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 574 Location: Yorkshire end of the M1
Also beware of running it with poor quality signal. A drop in quality may cause the Toppy to crash for some as yet unknown reason. This is only while recording or using the timeshift buffer. As a worst case, it may wipe the drive...

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