Click here to go to the forum index Click here for the home page
 
Author Message

<  Computer connections  ~  Multicolor Freeview Subtitles to DVD - Success

Page 1 of 3
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next
Shannock9
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:47 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1060 Location: London, UK
Edit: please see new posts for Dec 2008 onwards

The UK DVB-T (Freeview) subtitles often use colours to indicate who is speaking. This includes multiple speeches/colours in a single subtitle, and keeping the same colour for one speaker across several subs.

I would like to have these multicolour subtitles on the DVDs I make. I think this means I have to process them entirely as bitmaps (no text conversions).

Working backwards from the finished DVD, are there any tools to mux in a bitmap subpic stream without assuming it's a monochrome subtitle file? (I'm fairly fluent in the DVD file structures with PGCEdit and IFOEdit so a convoluted detour would be better than nothing.)

Working forwards from the rec files I have two thoughts:
(a) When I play a rec file with VLC the coloured subtitles are shown correctly (codec dvbs), but I cannot see any way in VLC to transcode or just plain save the subpic stream.
(b) Project X will write a SON file with hundreds of (correct) BMPs - but what do I do with the results?

Solution does not have to be free, but I cannot afford DVDLab Pro nor Scenarist. I only have Windows platforms at home but do have Unix experience and am happy with the command line.

Any thoughts, experience, suggestions, comments?
Duncan


Last edited by Shannock9 on Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:58 pm; edited 5 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
AllanG
Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:08 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 15 May 2005 Posts: 459 Location: Glasgow, Scotland
IfoEdit will do what you want.

There are details on exactly what to do here (post #69 in particular).

Basically, you run the .rec file through ProjectX to demux it and then use IfoEdit to assemble the files necessary to burn a DVD. There are a couple of settings needed to retain the colours in subtitles but they're explained in the page referred to above.

_________________
Allan Girvan
TF5800, IA On, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy
TAPs: mei2archive BETA 3.8l3; Extend v1.7; FastSkip 1.1; Font Manager 1.0d; MyStuff 6.3; EPG2MEI v0.96; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub v0.6; MyInfo B5.5;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 24/12/10
View user's profile Send private message
Shannock9
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 4:34 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1060 Location: London, UK
Allan, thank you very much for the tips and the link. This is now 'almost' working, with different colours for different speakers, except the colours are nothing like correct - how about gold writing with a black border and white antialiasing, followed by pink writing with a pink border and white antialiasing Shocked. IMO border colours and anti aliasing are not needed.

Is there a recommended setting of the "simulate DVB subpictures IRD colour model" for UK Freeview?

I've seen forum references to a "UK Freeview CLUT" but that's not an option on my Project X 0.90.4.00/30.03.2006

TIA, Duncan
View user's profile Send private message
AllanG
Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:48 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 15 May 2005 Posts: 459 Location: Glasgow, Scotland
The UK Freeview option is available in this version. That's the compiled .jar file so you'll need to have the full Java Runtime Environment already installed.

As far as I remember, it wasn't an option in the standalone version.

_________________
Allan Girvan
TF5800, IA On, TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -Sy
TAPs: mei2archive BETA 3.8l3; Extend v1.7; FastSkip 1.1; Font Manager 1.0d; MyStuff 6.3; EPG2MEI v0.96; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub v0.6; MyInfo B5.5;
Sig generated by MyInfo on 24/12/10
View user's profile Send private message
Shannock9
Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:09 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1060 Location: London, UK
Allan, thank you for pointing me to the "UK Freeview" version. My tests with this give worse results than the Std 16 colour.

Std 16 colour: (1) each sub uses unrelated mapping - not consistent from sub to sub - and exported palette (XXX.sup.ifo) bears no relation to anything. (2) misuse of outlining and antialiasing - outlining is not used in UK DVB-T so why render with it? - antialiasing is used, but should be a lower priority than 2nd speaker for scarce E1/E2 colours.

UK Freeview: as above plus (3) within one sub, the main text colour is the same for all speakers (though distinguished by different outline/antialias!!)

I realise you didn't write this code, and if my gripes (sorry, feedback) should be posted elsewhere please so indicate. However if you happen to have any answers.....or know of any tools for in depth analysis/edit of a subpicture stream (as opposed to a subtitle stream) ?
Cheers, Duncan
View user's profile Send private message
Shannock9
Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 8:48 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1060 Location: London, UK
Several months later....

As outlined above, my target is UK DVB-T to DVD with subtitles looking exactly as transmitted. This brings two difficulties. Firstly the well known problem that these are multicolored by speaker within individual subtitles. Secondly the broadcasters are more and more frequently using "stenographic" (word by word) subtitling.

Seeing no hint of anyone else grasping the nettle, I have in the spirit of open source completely solved both of these difficulties for myself (until the next bug - haha) by patching my personal copy of ProjectX.

My patched version will output a sup file which when remuxed with IfoEdit or similar will play on PowerDVD (so far) or a dedicated DVD player and look "the same as" the original transmission. It's not my intent to support any other subtitle output format in multicolor, though son/bmp will generate correctly to monochrome (overcoming ProjectX's problem with stenographic s/t whereby each new word deletes the previous ones on the same line).

Edited 2009/12/26....

At present I don't plan a formal distribution but will share my work with enthusiasts on this forum. See here for sample output. If anyone would like to be an beta tester please PM me and provide a working email address.

I will support this code as best I can, but I myself don't understand everything about Project X, so beta testers will have to have a standard version of ProjectX so they can quickly decide whether a bug is down to my patches or the base code. In the long term I hope my work will be taken over by ProjectX but that is still to be worked out.


I'd like to close by saying that I'm deeply grateful to dvb.matt and the other authors of ProjectX for providing such a solid basis for my work.

Duncan


Last edited by Shannock9 on Sun Dec 28, 2008 5:30 pm; edited 7 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
SonicLife
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:31 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1261
Duncan,

Nice work, I have been amazed how badly supported subtitle conversion seemed, glad it's not just me being stupid. Also glad to see that it is project x that is the root cause, as I long suspected.

I would be interested in doing some limited testing, particularly in how my rec2dvd script works with your new version, but I don't want to get into compiling java currently. Is there no chance of a windows compile to play with?

_________________
Toppy conversion scripts to convert toppy recordings to other formats.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Shannock9
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:53 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1060 Location: London, UK
Thank you. I wouldn't say ProjectX was the root cause, more a basis for a solution.
Lack of development of ProjectX could be fingered, but hey, they are volunteers Smile

There is no chance of a Windows.exe file. A Project-X.jar file is negotiable. That way you'd only have to install the Java Run-time Environment (JRE). How do you run Project-X at the moment?

I need to learn about running ProjectX from the command line and I suspect you already have that figured out?
View user's profile Send private message
SonicLife
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:08 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1261
I meant .jar and not .exe Laughing I'll PM you my email address.

Yes I call project x from the command line, look at my scripts for examples, they all do a simple demux, anything more complicated can be handled by feeding in .ini files.

_________________
Toppy conversion scripts to convert toppy recordings to other formats.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Shannock9
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:43 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1060 Location: London, UK
@SonicLife: Thankyou for your offer of help. I have looked at your scripts now (and very clever they are too) but there may be a bit of a disconnect. Naturally anyone can make their own choice of tools and workflow, but the sup files I produce cannot usefully be broken into individual pictures (bmp or png).

Each subpicture in the sup file has two elements - a bitmap and a command table . As you probably realise DVD subpics only have a 2 color index bits per pixel, thus an apparent limit of 4 colors per subpic. I overcome this by generating a relatively unusual command table including a CHG_COLCON command, which allows us to redefine the meaning of the 4 color index values (and their transparency) for each XY area within the subpic. So if you separate each bitmap from its command table all bets are off. I don't know of any tools that can view/edit sup files with sophisticated command tables.

[Edit Tue Mar 9, 2010: See here for a new tool that can do this very well.]

[I have already had to redesign this bleeding edge command table twice because various dedicated and PC based players couldn't parse them even though they are within the apocryphal standards (of course I have never read the copyright official standards). Even SupViewer which is supposed to understand the command table cannot deal with these sup files. The way I check individual bitmaps is I have a option to inhibit the generation of the CHG_COLCON and also apply garish interpretations to the four (now fixed) color index values so as to highlight any incorrect values (or transmission noise). I've noticed one can also ask ProjectX to generate SON format which includes one bmp file per subpicture. These are in white on black but one can check the text and antialiasing etc., and the son file can be useful to debug the timestamps and delays in the sup file.]

My workflow today is simply to demux with my special ProjectX to m2v, m2p and sup then remux using IfoEdit, followed of course by copying the clut from *.sup.ifo to the new *.ifo (Rejig cannot deal with these sup files.) Meanwhile I make a target DVD with menus but only short dummy titlesets (VOBs), then finally I use PgcEdit to replace the dummies with those from IfoEdit. It's only about 45 seconds of clicking per movie or episode, and a script would certainly be nice, but I doubt whether IfoEdit and PgcEdit can be scripted.

[Any cutting I do beforehand using VideoRedo TVSuite (beta 568) which can do frame accurate cuts to a new ts file retaining the subpic stream. For this reason I have not even figured out how to tell ProjectX to cut, and the interaction of cutting with my new code is something that hasn't been tested. Volunteers are solicited - please PM me.]

[Edit Sun Dec 28, 2008: Outdated prevarication deleted.]

HTH, Duncan.


Last edited by Shannock9 on Tue Mar 09, 2010 9:34 am; edited 3 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
SonicLife
Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:50 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1261
From the bits I understood in your message it sounds like rec2dvd has no change with your changes, that is not to say your version won't offer much improved imperfection from where it is now. Whenever you are read to send a version that would be great.

It looks like IfoEdit does not work from the command line, so unless the author fancies adding this functionality, or you can find another tool that will mux the streams into vobs or mpegs you are probably stuck with using the GUIs.

Regarding using Project X to cut, how frame accurate are you looking for? It never matched VideoRedo when I played with it for perfect cuts, and I hated the GUI. Cutting on bookmarks as I implemented works OK for basic advert removal.

_________________
Toppy conversion scripts to convert toppy recordings to other formats.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Shannock9
Posted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:56 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1060 Location: London, UK
SonicLife wrote:
From the bits I understood in your message it sounds like rec2dvd has no change with your changes, that is not to say your version won't offer much improved imperfection from where it is now. Whenever you are read to send a version that would be great.
I have sent a modified ProjectX.jar file to Sonic and am looking forward to any testing he may care to report.

However I am boldly claiming that used directly (not in a script) it will work "perfectly" - even for "Strictly" Wink

Here is a sample rec file (labelled .ts - 20MB) with challenging multicolor stenographic subtitles.
And here is the VIDEO_TS created by my modified ProjectX -> IfoEdit. In this sample the subtitles are well behind the audio, but that is how they were transmitted. I think they have someone typing them in 'in arrears'.

If anyone else would like to try using this tool directly (not in a script) please let me know.
[You don't have to compile, just have the JRE installed - same as any Java program.]


SonicLife wrote:
It looks like IfoEdit does not work from the command line, so unless the author fancies adding this functionality, or you can find another tool that will mux the streams into vobs or mpegs you are probably stuck with using the GUIs.
Regarding using Project X to cut, how frame accurate are you looking for? It never matched VideoRedo when I played with it for perfect cuts, and I hated the GUI. Cutting on bookmarks as I implemented works OK for basic advert removal.
Useful feedback, thank you.

The free upload site expires after 15 days - if you cannot get the files pls PM me


Last edited by Shannock9 on Thu Jun 04, 2009 9:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message
Shannock9
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:28 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 22 Aug 2005 Posts: 1060 Location: London, UK
The sample VIDEO_TS (20 MB) can be played with subtitles by PowerDVD and by the builtin player in IFOEdit (use the Subpicture dropdown on the RHS of the player control dialog), also by my Philips DVP5980.

VLC "knows they are there" but apparently cannot parse the special command tables so does not display them.
It can however display the subtitles correctly when playing the original rec files.

Would anyone else kindly try the sample and advise what players work/don't work?

TIA, Duncan
View user's profile Send private message
SonicLife
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:32 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 1261
Corel WinDVD 9 plays the sample correctly.

I could not get zoom player to play correctly without choosing the filter from WinDVD, there may be some other filter out there that works, but not any that I have installed.

_________________
Toppy conversion scripts to convert toppy recordings to other formats.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
R2-D2
Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:16 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
You asked about the normal format used with Xvid/DivX players: AFAIK the most common image-based one is VobSub .sub/.idx, which I suspect most people will say is documented only by the source code, although there's a little bit here. (I think the text-based .srt format is usually preferred, but mainly because it's easier for people to alter or create themselves.)

_________________
Troubleshooting -- User Manual -- Dark Side of the Matrix: Firmwares and Patches
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website

Display posts from previous:  

All times are GMT
Page 1 of 3
Goto page 1, 2, 3  Next

Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum