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HydeTheDarkerSide
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:31 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 5953 Location: Hannington Transmitter : Sony KDL 40Z5800
R2-D2 wrote:
HydeTheDarkerSide wrote:
IIRC BobD relies completely on the TAP API for timer handling. In addition editing the CT within 3 minutes of it's start time is a limitation set so that the Toppy has "time" to get itself in order to start the recording.
Although my log shows I managed to set the one-off timer with less than 30 seconds left to go. Does this mean MyStuff is conservatively allocating 3 minutes to allow for its own CT processing time?
Yup, it's to allow for the search, padding adjustments and clash settings.

R2-D2 wrote:
And, more importantly, what happens when MyStuff runs a scheduled rescan in such circumstances?
Sorry, lost the plot, what scheduled scan? MS only scans when it detects that eit2mei has updated the freeview.mei file.

Quote:
The clash warning MS provides when a timer has already started is because we cannot currently adjust an ongoing recording via the API, and so we use the warning instead.
Quote:
But the recording didn't need adjusting. The timer just needed to be set, as it had happily been before. I really don't understand this prohibition. I've just tried something very similar and a "!" is not a warning: such a timer won't record!
Sorry, once again, it's getting late Embarassed I confused the warning pop-up you get with the Timer Archive clash symbol you quoted. I can't answer that one since I'd have needed to be there. But if you can replicate the clash symbol let us know and we'll give it another thashing round the team.

Quote:
Lastly, getting the Toppy to add padding to both back2back timers on the same channel, is one of those mysteries that is not limited to MS, it can happen with a TAPless Toppy too.
Quote:
Ah -- so you're saying that the Toppy will sometimes refuse to set timers that will record two things at once? That's a little strange.
No that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that since we rely on the Toppy API for setting timers, if there's a bug that allows you to get padding on consecutive timers on the same channel, it's a Toppy API bug, not a MyStuff bug.

R2-D2 wrote:
I've just checked my log and initially the CT+OneOff were set seemingly without the padding, and then many hours and shutdowns later the padding was added (although I've just noticed that FpLogger does not consider the end time of a timer when distinguishing them, so I can only see what happened to the second timer).

And I've had loads of recordings with the pair of CTs which have always had the padding removed. The second timer has never been set with padding, not even temporarily (so I guess the Toppy is consistently refusing this one, even though the timers don't occur at the same time every day). In case someone else wants to have a bash at it, the CTs in question are Peppa Pig and Thomas & Friends on Five. They always have the padding removed for me. I'll see if I can try a few different things, but CT priority made no difference (even at opposite ends of my 27 long CT list).
What are your padding settings again? I see that Peppa Pig is only 5 mins long, if your padding settings are the same or greater than the duration of the program, then the padding logic in MS is likely to fail.

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Hyde.
2x TF5800 All controlled with Harmony Ultimate , TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -RSy+BmC0CbCfCtDsEgEmEvFsGIMPePsR0ScUUuWfXZ
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HydeTheDarkerSide
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:32 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 5953 Location: Hannington Transmitter : Sony KDL 40Z5800
I have -2/+4 and I get the pre padding on Peppa Pig and the post padding on T&F, which is what I would expect given my padding settings.

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Hyde.
2x TF5800 All controlled with Harmony Ultimate , TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -RSy+BmC0CbCfCtDsEgEmEvFsGIMPePsR0ScUUuWfXZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.3; EPG2MEI v0.96; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.5 RC2;
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R2-D2
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:34 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
HydeTheDarkerSide wrote:
Lastly, getting the Toppy to add padding to both back2back timers on the same channel, is one of those mysteries that is not limited to MS, it can happen with a TAPless Toppy too.

Thank you for that -- I've just been educated into another Toppy mystery! I turned off the CTs and tried to set the timers manually, and I even went through the native Toppy EPG. In fact, I also tried the very manual Timers menu. It's the first time I've seen the "Duplicated Reservation" box pop up with just one timer in it! For a machine with dual record that's a very strange message to see. And I seem to get it consistently on loads of different things I've tried (including one timer crossing midnight like the CT+OneOff combination that worked).

To my mind this adds considerable weight to the suggestion that combining consecutive timers would be a nice option. That's the way the Toppy obviously wants you to do it. And since MyStuff already holds recording descriptions and resume points in its own storage area, I'm sure BobD could virtually separate the combined recordings...
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per-Sony-fied
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:38 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 13 Jan 2007 Posts: 114 Location: Essex
HydeTheDarkerSide wrote:
The problem with pop-up's is that we'd need to make them configurable so that users comfortable with the 2 options for playing back a recording are not constantly interrupted. That's a lot of effort for something that will become second nature after a short period anyway.


But pop-ups for one-off functions are very unlikely I'm afraid.


I don't see how a recording will be interupted.... you select what you want to watch a pop-up appears with 2 options. Choose the option you desire and away you go. Just seems so simple.
The other method requires memory & can lose chase play if wrong button is pressed (I think that's what I did the other day).
IF these functions are used a lot then yes you will remember them. Everything is only second nature when you do something frequently & often.

However I don't think I'm gonna be running up an convincing argument. Sad
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HydeTheDarkerSide
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:43 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 5953 Location: Hannington Transmitter : Sony KDL 40Z5800
@ R2-D2

In that case I'd say you do indeed have a very real clashing timer.

I'd either turn all your CT's to off and delete all the timers you can find and then turn the CT's back on. Or perform a factory reset, and allow the CT's to re-create your timers.

We did find an issue, some while ago when the first epg improvements where made to the Toppy firmware, that meant less memory was available for TAPs that allowed orphaned timers to be left in toppy memory even though the option to remove the CT and associated timers had been taken. This was largely to do with handing excessive excess timers (ie 270+ timers) But that has long since been resolved.

Unless of course you've found a way or re-creating with your CT priority testing Wink

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Hyde.
2x TF5800 All controlled with Harmony Ultimate , TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -RSy+BmC0CbCfCtDsEgEmEvFsGIMPePsR0ScUUuWfXZ
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HydeTheDarkerSide
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:48 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 5953 Location: Hannington Transmitter : Sony KDL 40Z5800
per-Sony-fied wrote:
HydeTheDarkerSide wrote:
The problem with pop-up's is that we'd need to make them configurable so that users comfortable with the 2 options for playing back a recording are not constantly interrupted. That's a lot of effort for something that will become second nature after a short period anyway.


But pop-ups for one-off functions are very unlikely I'm afraid.
I don't see how a recording will be interupted.... you select what you want to watch a pop-up appears with 2 options. Choose the option you desire and away you go. Just seems so simple.
The other method requires memory & can lose chase play if wrong button is pressed (I think that's what I did the other day).
IF these functions are used a lot then yes you will remember them. Everything is only second nature when you do something frequently & often.

However I don't think I'm gonna be running up an convincing argument. Sad
Not inturrupting the recording, inturrupting the flow to play one. Currently it's a one button press depending on which option you want to take. A pop-up introduces a set of choices which can be avoided with the current method. As for the buffer, there are sooo many things that'll blow the buffer away, that we simply don't rely on it and record everything instead.

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Hyde.
2x TF5800 All controlled with Harmony Ultimate , TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -RSy+BmC0CbCfCtDsEgEmEvFsGIMPePsR0ScUUuWfXZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.3; EPG2MEI v0.96; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.5 RC2;
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R2-D2
Posted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:50 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
HydeTheDarkerSide wrote:
R2-D2 wrote:
And, more importantly, what happens when MyStuff runs a scheduled rescan in such circumstances?
Sorry, lost the plot, what scheduled scan? MS only scans when it detects that eit2mei has updated the freeview.mei file.

I mean the L4 setting. I'm just wondering what happens if this happens in the same circumstances, causing timers to be adjusted. I guess this might be a different type of CT adjustment than happens after the list of CTs has been manually edited. And the CT adjustment that happens when you move from CT list->Timer list seems to be different from the adjustment that happens when you quit the list to show TV.

Quote:
But if you can replicate the clash symbol let us know and we'll give it another thashing round the team.

I'll do some research and see if I can find something reproducible.

Quote:
I'm saying that since we rely on the Toppy API for setting timers, if there's a bug that allows you to get padding on consecutive timers on the same channel, it's a Toppy API bug, not a MyStuff bug.

It does appear to be a Toppy-imposed limitation on timers, but clearly it's one it doesn't enforce 100% of the time. So I can see that MyStuff would have to work pretty hard to form some kind of consistency out this.

Quote:
What are your padding settings again? I see that Peppa Pig is only 5 mins long, if your padding settings are the same or greater than the duration of the program, then the padding logic in MS is likely to fail.

-1,+1 for Peppa and -1,+2 for Thomas. I've had MyStuff mess up the programme description on similarly short programmes, so I'd adjusted the padding for these from my normal -2,+6.

Quote:
I have -2/+4 and I get the pre padding on Peppa Pig and the post padding on T&F, which is what I would expect given my padding settings.

Yeah, but I had expected the padding to be intact since there are no other recordings. Now that I'm better educated, I can see how it's my overlapping recordings on the same channel that's actually the more interesting one...
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birdman
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:46 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 13 Dec 2006 Posts: 1689 Location: Hitchin, HERTS Tx: Sandy Heath
Something odd happened to me a day or so ago.

The exact details now elude me, but I think it went like this.

I had one recording running on MuxX
I had one set to start soon on MuxY
Then I set a Watch timer (for the cricket highlights) on MuxZ.

These all overlapped and would have needed 3 tuners, but MyStuff didn't complain!?!

I noticed the inconsistency and removed the Watch timer (I just noted that I'd need to switch back to the TV for it).

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R2-D2
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:06 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
HydeTheDarkerSide wrote:
In that case I'd say you do indeed have a very real clashing timer.

No, there was no clash, just a timer for Prison Break on Five being reset by the CT scan when it was near to firing. It was noticed (by FpLogger) that it had been deleted at 21:51:57, and it was due to fire at 21:58 (because I've got -2 minutes padding) and finish at 23:06. There was one active recording from 20:58 to 22:36 (Mobile on ITV1). No other timers until the early hours of the next day.

So that's 6 minutes left before the timer was due and it was turned into a clash.

Quote:
This was largely to do with handing excessive excess timers (ie 270+ timers) But that has long since been resolved.

Unless of course you've found a way or re-creating with your CT priority testing Wink

Maybe. I had 4 excess timers at that point.

I will endeavour to reproduce this. I did have a go at 22:26 when I manually stopped the recording of Mobile since it had plainly finished already (so leaving just Prison Break recording). I then tried without luck to enable an excluded CT timer for Rush Hour on BBC3 from 22:30 to 23:00 (or 22:28 to 23:06 with padding). It remained firmly as a "!". I maybe could have made it work by setting the timer to be a one-off (like I did eventually with Prison Break), but I didn't try.
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R2-D2
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:10 am Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 12149
Feature request Could the list of Timers also include the currently recording timers, too? I know they appear on the Archive, but it would be helpful to see them on the Timers list, too, so you can easily spot potential clashes without having to jump between the two lists.
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chunkywizard
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:57 am Reply with quote
MyStuff Team Joined: 13 May 2005 Posts: 9304 Location: Sindlesham, Berkshire Tx: Hannington
R2-D2 wrote:
Feature suggestion I've recently started using CTs and it's struck me that the technology might easily be extended from "Record" and "Watch" timers to something like "Interesting". This would not strictly speaking be a timer, but a way of flagging entries in the EPG as "interesting". The EPG would be searched in exactly the same way, but no timers would be set. Instead, the relevant EPG items would be highlighted, maybe in a similar way to the existing C, R and F icons, or maybe by changing the background colour (with maybe different colours for different types of "interesting"?). This way you could see the interesting stuff in the EPG at a glance. Of course, the downside is that people might want to make an awful lot more CTs and start putting a lot of strain on the system...


Hi R2,

this has been suggested before by one of the MyStuff team. Not sure it will happen in the short term but I will ask the team what they think. It sounds good to me, but we shall see how much coding is involved and whether it's worth it,

HTH

CW

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sanecyclist
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:30 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 10 May 2006 Posts: 817
R2-D2 wrote:
Feature suggestion I've recently started using CTs and it's struck me that the technology might easily be extended from "Record" and "Watch" timers to something like "Interesting".

I'd really like to see this implemented. I had suggested this feature before, calling it "mark timers", and a few other people thought it was a good idea. PeteY pointed out at the time that exclude timers do pretty much what's required, so control timers would only need to be able to generate those.
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charley
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:33 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 13 Jul 2005 Posts: 1563 Location: Belfast
Problem with MS 5.21a and Firmware 5.13.40.

With K7 set to Slow. Rewind live TV and chase play. Press Slow crash.
With 5.12.88 jumps to last recording played.
Set K7 to None and Slow plays slow motion in chase play with both 5.12.88 and 5.13.40 as expected.

Interestingly with 5.13.39 it is OK so there must be some difference between .39 and .40.

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regards Charley
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HydeTheDarkerSide
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:22 pm Reply with quote
Site Admin Joined: 11 May 2005 Posts: 5953 Location: Hannington Transmitter : Sony KDL 40Z5800
R2-D2 wrote:
Feature request Could the list of Timers also include the currently recording timers, too? I know they appear on the Archive, but it would be helpful to see them on the Timers list, too, so you can easily spot potential clashes without having to jump between the two lists.
Possibly...

Timers are deleted anything up to around 5 minutes after their start time by the standard Toppy housekeeping routines. So we can't use that data. So we'd just need to check which data set is used to populate the recording Archive and see if that's suitable for display in the Timer view too.

What you can't do from the TAP API is then adjust the timer data for an ongoing recording. You have to use the in-built Toppy pop-up when you press Record outside of any osd. So for that reason, it might be better to not display it at all. Since it could well spawn more questions here than it solves as a feature request.

We'll let you know what we find.


Last edited by HydeTheDarkerSide on Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Hyde.
2x TF5800 All controlled with Harmony Ultimate , TS On, F/W: MS6 Recommended F/W 12/9/2009 -RSy+BmC0CbCfCtDsEgEmEvFsGIMPePsR0ScUUuWfXZ
TAPs: PcControl B1.3; EPG2MEI v0.96; Font Manager 1.0d; Extend v1.7; SecCache (UK) v0.4; EIT Sub (Game) v0.6; MyInfo B5.6; MyStuff 6.5 RC2;
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simonc
Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 1:25 pm Reply with quote
Frequent contributor Joined: 12 Apr 2005 Posts: 5618 Location: Cheltenham
I'd like to see this feature too. I've lost count of the number of times I've opened the timer screen after something has started recording and had a brief panic because the timer had disappeared! If the API allows it, it'd allow you to adjust the length of the recording without having to change channel and press record.

<edit>Thought so, the API is crippled.
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